Wildcat Round

Bucksnort1 · April 30, 2015, 09:44 PM

I'm seeking information about what must be a wildcat round. I have a 300 Weatherby case necked down to a 224 caliber, complete with bullet but no powder or primer. On firing a round, such as this, I can't imagine how this bullet would remain in one piece coming out of the muzzle of a gun chambered for it but, then again, this may be someone's idea of a joke cartridge.

Any thoughts?

Never trust a woman with a tattoo of a dagger anywhere on her body.

FrankenMauser · May 1, 2015, 05:08 AM

Most high velocity bullets "self-destruct" because of centrifugal forces.
Since centrifugal force can be controlled by the designer, via twist rate and velocity, it's easy to negate the "mid-air lead puff".

All else being equal:
As velocity increases, twist rate decreases (slower twist).
As twist rate increases, velocity decreases.

That's why .22-250s and .220 Swifts often have 1:12" or 1:14" rates of twists, while .223 Rem, .222 Rem Mag, and similar cartridges are more commonly found with 1:7" to 1:10" twist rates. The reason for the difference is velocity.

With a little bit of digging in my library, I found a reference to the cartridge being used by some guys in Georgia, trying to break 5,500 fps. After determining what the maximum load would be, they ran pressures up to 68,000 psi and could only reach 4,900 fps. The throat was completely fried with fewer than 20 full pressure loads fired. (So, it's definitely not great for longevity.)
They tried pushing the cartridge to 70k psi, but "encountered brass flow issues."
No type or weight is mentioned for bullet or powder, so I'm not sure if that would be a realistic maximum for the cartridge, or just for their set of parameters.

Bucksnort1 · May 1, 2015, 09:24 AM

FrankenMauser, thanks for the information.

T. O'Heir · May 1, 2015, 02:55 PM

Sounds like somebody tried to make a .224 Weatherby Mag without actually knowing what it is. Same case but shorter.

jaguarxk120 · May 1, 2015, 03:10 PM

The 224 Weatherby was made on it's own unique case. No other caliber used that case.

Bucksnort1 · May 1, 2015, 08:45 PM

Gents,

I must correct my original statement. The bullet size for this wildcat round is 250, not .224. Yes, I know Weatherby has its own belted .224 round and 7mm and 270 and 340 and others.

FrankenMauser · May 1, 2015, 11:31 PM

Sounds like .257 Weatherby. ...Or a formed .257 Weatherby case with a .251" handgun bullet stuffed in it?

Quote:

Sounds like somebody tried to make a .224 Weatherby Mag without actually knowing what it is. Same case but shorter.

Very much not the same case, at all.
.224 Weatherby Mag is a unique case. It is a belted case with an '06-diameter case head. There's nothing else like it, which is why Norma and Weatherby charge an arm, a leg, 7 toes, and your first born for 20 pieces of brass.

.220 Weatherby Rocket (predecessor to the .224 Wby Mag) was a different case, as well. It was a modified .220 Swift (itself a 6mm Lee Navy with the rim turned to 0.473").

HiBC · May 2, 2015, 07:32 AM

A little off topic,but something to consider.Folks often want to build the "ultimate".Necking down the biggest case they can find is one expression of that drive.
When the powder is ignited,it starts making hot gas.Pressure climbs,so does heat,powder burns faster.

Something has to give.If you had no bore/bullet,you would have a closed bomb.Something would give!!

But since we do have a bullet traveling down the bore,the pressure is moderated by an increase in the geometric volume of the combustion chamber.
The bore volume behind the bullet is a part of the combustion chamber volume.
The area of the diameter of the bullet,the old pi x the square of the radius formula,times the length determines how rapidly,(or not!) the combustion chamber volume increases.Or,how rapidly the pressure is moderated.

And ,of course,if the handloader takes advantage of that large case with a large volume of powder,Large volume of powder makes large volume of gas.

It gets very touchy for the handloader to pursue performance with extremely overbore cartridges.When the gas production outruns the bore expansion,bad things happen.

The other problem is A large charge of slow burning powder has a long ,hot flame duration funneled through a small steel throat,Bore erosion is rapid.

Myself,I have no interest in extreme overbore cartridges.

IMO,in most cases,they indicate someone has a lot to learn.

Bucksnort1 · May 2, 2015, 07:58 AM

FrankenMauser,

This is not the .257 Weatherby. The head stamp clearly indicates this is a 300Weatherby case. If I can figure out how to make my photos smaller for attaching to these responses, I'll attach a photo of the loaded .250 round and one of its head stamp.

std7mag · May 2, 2015, 03:15 PM

Could be like many other wildcat cartridges.
257 Weatherby may be hard to come by, or the casings at least.
While the 300 Weatherby is fairly common.
Take 300 casing, neck to .257 and taaa daa... New 257 cartridge.

Take 257Roberts for instance. Since those casings are hard to find, and fairly expensive, I purchased 100 casings for the 7mm Mauser, and necked them down. (how it was originally done way back when)...

FrankenMauser · May 2, 2015, 09:36 PM

Quote:

FrankenMauser,

This is not the .257 Weatherby. The head stamp clearly indicates this is a 300Weatherby case. If I can figure out how to make my photos smaller for attaching to these responses, I'll attach a photo of the loaded .250 round and one of its head stamp.

My 6x45mm cartridges "clearly indicate" that they are .223 Remington. ...But that doesn't mean anything except that, at one point in time, the case was manufactured as .223 Remington. Since then, it has been modified to suit my needs and accept a 6mm projectile.

Many cases are formed, or can be formed, from other cartridges.
.257 Weatherby and .300 Weatherby are both based on the .300 H&H case (along with hundreds of other 'standard' and wildcat cartridges).

.257 Weatherby is readily formed from .300 Weatherby by trimming the case and carefully (and incrementally) running it into a sizing die - or, better yet, a set of form dies.

How long is the case?
.257 Weatherby should have a case length of 2.539-2.549".
.300 Weatherby should have a case length of 2.815-2.825".

reynolds357 · May 2, 2015, 11:52 PM

It requires .315 trimming to neck a .300 WBY down to a .257 WBY. The visual difference in the cartridges is MOST obvious. The .300/.257 WBY is a wildcat that has been around for decades.

std7mag · May 3, 2015, 09:43 AM

The difference in length may not be as obvious to some as to others...

I have seen a guy at the range struggling to get the bolt closed on his rifle. Kept pushing, and pushing. Wouldn't close.
I walked over to see what was up.
He handed me the rifle, I opened the bolt, and a 30-06 cartridge came out of his 308 rifle...

I'm not suggesting the OP is such a person, just that it does indeed happen.

FrankenMauser · May 4, 2015, 01:28 AM

Seeing as how the OP is currently active and posting in other threads, even multiple .300 Weatherby threads, but has not come back to this one... I believe he may have given up on us.

Just so we're clear about the point that I was trying to make:
Headstamps mean nothing, once the case is removed from its original context (bag of factory brass, box of ammo, etc.). Once a case hits the dirt or concrete floor of a range... it's whatever a reloader wants it to be.

This case, for example, clearly indicates that it is .40 S&W; but it is plainly obvious that something isn't quite right.

...because it is actually a .44 caliber (.432") bullet that was used to take a bull elk.

Cool side note: That little chunk of lead in the primer pocket wasn't there when it was fired. There was still a fired primer in it. The lead was actually extruded through the flash hole, ejecting the primer in the process, when the bullet impacted the animal.

April 30, 2015, 09:44 PM	#1
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,124	Wildcat Round I'm seeking information about what must be a wildcat round. I have a 300 Weatherby case necked down to a 224 caliber, complete with bullet but no powder or primer. On firing a round, such as this, I can't imagine how this bullet would remain in one piece coming out of the muzzle of a gun chambered for it but, then again, this may be someone's idea of a joke cartridge. Any thoughts? Never trust a woman with a tattoo of a dagger anywhere on her body.

May 1, 2015, 05:08 AM	#2
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,439	Most high velocity bullets "self-destruct" because of centrifugal forces. Since centrifugal force can be controlled by the designer, via twist rate and velocity, it's easy to negate the "mid-air lead puff". All else being equal: As velocity increases, twist rate decreases (slower twist). As twist rate increases, velocity decreases. That's why .22-250s and .220 Swifts often have 1:12" or 1:14" rates of twists, while .223 Rem, .222 Rem Mag, and similar cartridges are more commonly found with 1:7" to 1:10" twist rates. The reason for the difference is velocity. With a little bit of digging in my library, I found a reference to the cartridge being used by some guys in Georgia, trying to break 5,500 fps. After determining what the maximum load would be, they ran pressures up to 68,000 psi and could only reach 4,900 fps. The throat was completely fried with fewer than 20 full pressure loads fired. (So, it's definitely not great for longevity.) They tried pushing the cartridge to 70k psi, but "encountered brass flow issues." No type or weight is mentioned for bullet or powder, so I'm not sure if that would be a realistic maximum for the cartridge, or just for their set of parameters. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

May 1, 2015, 02:55 PM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Sounds like somebody tried to make a .224 Weatherby Mag without actually knowing what it is. Same case but shorter. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

May 4, 2015, 01:28 AM	#14
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,439	Seeing as how the OP is currently active and posting in other threads, even multiple .300 Weatherby threads, but has not come back to this one... I believe he may have given up on us. Just so we're clear about the point that I was trying to make: Headstamps mean nothing, once the case is removed from its original context (bag of factory brass, box of ammo, etc.). Once a case hits the dirt or concrete floor of a range... it's whatever a reloader wants it to be. This case, for example, clearly indicates that it is .40 S&W; but it is plainly obvious that something isn't quite right. ...because it is actually a .44 caliber (.432") bullet that was used to take a bull elk. Cool side note: That little chunk of lead in the primer pocket wasn't there when it was fired. There was still a fired primer in it. The lead was actually extruded through the flash hole, ejecting the primer in the process, when the bullet impacted the animal. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

May 1, 2015, 09:24 AM	#3
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,124	FrankenMauser, thanks for the information.

May 1, 2015, 03:10 PM	#5
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	The 224 Weatherby was made on it's own unique case. No other caliber used that case.

May 1, 2015, 08:45 PM	#6
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,124	Gents, I must correct my original statement. The bullet size for this wildcat round is 250, not .224. Yes, I know Weatherby has its own belted .224 round and 7mm and 270 and 340 and others.

May 2, 2015, 07:32 AM	#8
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,294	A little off topic,but something to consider.Folks often want to build the "ultimate".Necking down the biggest case they can find is one expression of that drive. When the powder is ignited,it starts making hot gas.Pressure climbs,so does heat,powder burns faster. Something has to give.If you had no bore/bullet,you would have a closed bomb.Something would give!! But since we do have a bullet traveling down the bore,the pressure is moderated by an increase in the geometric volume of the combustion chamber. The bore volume behind the bullet is a part of the combustion chamber volume. The area of the diameter of the bullet,the old pi x the square of the radius formula,times the length determines how rapidly,(or not!) the combustion chamber volume increases.Or,how rapidly the pressure is moderated. And ,of course,if the handloader takes advantage of that large case with a large volume of powder,Large volume of powder makes large volume of gas. It gets very touchy for the handloader to pursue performance with extremely overbore cartridges.When the gas production outruns the bore expansion,bad things happen. The other problem is A large charge of slow burning powder has a long ,hot flame duration funneled through a small steel throat,Bore erosion is rapid. Myself,I have no interest in extreme overbore cartridges. IMO,in most cases,they indicate someone has a lot to learn.

May 2, 2015, 07:58 AM	#9
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,124	FrankenMauser, This is not the .257 Weatherby. The head stamp clearly indicates this is a 300Weatherby case. If I can figure out how to make my photos smaller for attaching to these responses, I'll attach a photo of the loaded .250 round and one of its head stamp.

May 2, 2015, 03:15 PM	#10
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Could be like many other wildcat cartridges. 257 Weatherby may be hard to come by, or the casings at least. While the 300 Weatherby is fairly common. Take 300 casing, neck to .257 and taaa daa... New 257 cartridge. Take 257Roberts for instance. Since those casings are hard to find, and fairly expensive, I purchased 100 casings for the 7mm Mauser, and necked them down. (how it was originally done way back when)...

May 2, 2015, 11:52 PM	#12
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	It requires .315 trimming to neck a .300 WBY down to a .257 WBY. The visual difference in the cartridges is MOST obvious. The .300/.257 WBY is a wildcat that has been around for decades.

May 3, 2015, 09:43 AM	#13
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	The difference in length may not be as obvious to some as to others... I have seen a guy at the range struggling to get the bolt closed on his rifle. Kept pushing, and pushing. Wouldn't close. I walked over to see what was up. He handed me the rifle, I opened the bolt, and a 30-06 cartridge came out of his 308 rifle... I'm not suggesting the OP is such a person, just that it does indeed happen.