droping to a knee while reloading from empty??? - Page 2

buzz_knox · March 20, 2009, 07:30 AM

Quote:

After that, on AVERAGE, it is over. One way or the other.

On AVERAGE, there is little reason to own a weapon for self defense, even less reason to own ammunition, and almost zero reason to train with it.

Unfortunately, AVERAGE situations tend to happen to other people, rather than the one relying upon the statistics.

Kmar40 · March 20, 2009, 08:39 AM

Quote:

It may be good to practice this, but in a real life street-style, BG vs. civilian gunfight a reload is an unlikely occurrance.

Maybe so, but it's the only way we practice. The magazine hits the grass and we do an emergency reload every single time, then re-address the targets, then holster. Every single time.

matolman1 · March 20, 2009, 10:13 AM

My post on changing mags from the kneeling position needs clarification.

My training and life experience is based on 12 years as a member of the Israeli security services (IDF and Border Police) as well as training annually with the top firearms instructors in Israel (ex commando's and General Security Service (SHABAK) instructors/agents). (I currently reside in TN).

Most of my training, and my advice, is based on an Israeli anti-terror / close protection platform.

We have always been instructed and drilled to go down to a knee, head up, while reloading mags. Transitions (from primary to secondary) are done while standing/moving. We are always drilled that you always move forward, towards your enemy. A combat soldier never moves backwards.

Going down on one knee does not put you in a negative frame of mind. Rather, it removes you from the direct line of fire (threat must reposition his aim since you were standing, now are kneeling) and makes you a smaller target and gives you a very stable shooting platform if needed. From the kneeling position you can transition to the standing/crouching, charging position very quickly.

In Israel, we do not have the luxury of a retreat mindset (live to fight another day) because the entire country can be run over in a few hours. You lose a war in Israel and you lose everything.

On a static range, with static targets (and yes, a 'pop up' target is a static target in my opinion), where you basically know where your enemy/threat is and is not, it is easy to shoot on the move/advancing towards cover/concealment, where you can then "trade shots" with the threat/target.

During a terror attack when you do not have the luxury of running to get behind cover while the threat goes on a rampage and you are the only person around to stop the threat from killing others, you must advance immediately with speed and extreme violence of action, towards your 'target'. (obviously using proper technique).

Most of the time this translates into charging the threat head on, shooting either while running at full speed (using proper technique)(note I say full speed, not a trot or a jog or a Groucho walk) or charging the target from an angle, stopping briefly (using proper "breaking" technique) and eliminating the threat.

You shoot until the target is neutralized, kneel, change magazine, crouch and scan 360 degrees searching for additional threats and then verify your kill. You do not train to reholster your weapon until all of this is completed.

Yes, you might not survive the confrontation. You may get wounded. But, the idea of running behind cover (which might be a distance away) while this attack is taking place when you are the person who has the ability to stop it by charging the threat, is almost unheard of in Israel.

I understand that most of what is discussed here is based on a criminal threat, but take for instance a church shooting.

A lone gunman enters a church and starts shooting. You are carrying to church (like you should be) and there are several hundred people between where you are standing and the gunner. You cannot afford to find cover and return fire from a distance, too many innocents in the way and too much ammo wasted (he will be better prepared and better stocked for this than you, no question).

You MUST take the attack to the attacker. You MUST take his advantage away. The way to do this is to move on him, towards him, either head on or using a flank.

I bring examples like these for a reason.

My point is that by using cover as your primary position (and your primary thought during an attack and training tool during range sessions), you run the risk of bogging yourself down behind that cover, allowing your enemy to advance on you and/or continue on his rampage.
Realize that when you are behind cover (like a car engine block or a tree), you are taking your line of sight off of your target and allowing him to pinpoint your position, keeping YOU in place.

Going down on one knee to change a magazine will most likely be done after the primary threat is neutralized and you are about to scan for additional targets.

I am not saying that you should always be in the open, on the charge. There are certainly times where you have an ability to maintain cover and return fire (i.e. a roadblock you are at, a barrier you are already behind and the threat is close enough for accurate, deadly return fire from you, being involved in a planned ambush where you are hit by multiple threats on multiple sides....etc...)

But, in the end, the guy who is moving towards his target will rule the fight. Notice, I say towards his target and not towards cover.

YES, if you can use cover while moving towards your target, great! But you must train yourself to instantly return fire when engaged and then charge your target if he is at a reasonable distance (within about 40 feet).

I just wanted to clarify my position on the question and I do realize that this is a very circumstance based scenario question.

I know people won't agree but hey, thats why there are multiple schools of training and theory because a gunfight, a battle, is dynamic and never the same. You must use all tools available to win the fight.
My training is based on certain life experince in an area of the world where combat and anti-terror operations are common occurance for some people.

Most of all, you must use speed of action and extreme violence with no mercy.

Ben

Tamara · March 20, 2009, 10:37 AM

I couldn't help but think of the bank robbery scene in Raising Arizona...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raising Arizona

Well, which is it, young feller? You want I should freeze or get down on the ground? Mean to say, if'n I freeze, I can't rightly drop. And if'n I drop, I'm a-gonna be in motion.

Do I take a knee or charge the threat? Mean to say, if'n I charge, I can't rightly take a knee. And if'n I take a knee, I'm not gonna be a-chargin'.

mrray13 · March 20, 2009, 10:54 AM

i want to train with Ben! what part of tn are you in?

in any case, our local MTU, training unit, trains us both stationary, ie; standing, kneeling, sitting and prone, and transition reload, ie: standing/kneeling, kneeling/prone, prone/standing, etc. chuck tries to instill the idea you might have to reload while relocating, and you had better be good at it. i , for one, vote that one should practice just about every circumstance one can imagine. there is no such thing as a typical firefight, IMHO.

matolman1 · March 20, 2009, 11:08 AM

You take the knee after the initial threat has been neutralized. The knee is for reducing yourself as a target while changing magazines and clearing malfunctions.

Realize, you are on the knee for maybe 2 seconds total. You are really moving forward the whole time, but taking a very brief interlude to change a mag or clear a malfunction. (think of it like a lunge..you are going forward, down on one knee and then back up moving forward.)

I am located in Memphis and run training sessions for people here as well as in other parts of the country and in Israel.

www.israeliprotectiveservice.com

FM12 · March 20, 2009, 11:11 AM

As an aside to matolman, I read an account of an Israeli citizen shooting a suicide bomber before any damage was done. During an interview, the hero shooter was asked if he was a police officer or IDF member. He replied, "No, I'm a shoe salesman."

That's as it should be!

matolman1 · March 20, 2009, 11:38 AM

Damn straight.

Chindo18Z · March 20, 2009, 12:34 PM

Quote:

matolman1: But, in the end, the guy who is moving towards his target will rule the fight. Notice, I say towards his target and not towards cover.

YES, if you can use cover while moving towards your target, great! But you must train yourself to instantly return fire when engaged and then charge your target if he is at a reasonable distance (within about 40 feet).

I just wanted to clarify my position on the question and I do realize that this is a very circumstance based scenario question.

Excellent points.

We teach our guys to stay aggressive, move into the opponent/s, and deliver accurate fire while on the move (which usually dictates something less than a forward sprint). Going for cover means someplace you can reach in about 3 seconds (or matolman1's described ~40 feet). If no cover is available, move straight down his throat until you can't miss. Cover is used when you need it. If you already have the guy rattled or can put hits on him, keep hitting him until he goes away. Then seek cover. It's a judgment call and will vary each and every time.

Your worst case scenario could easily require what you have described (e.g., you are by yourself, have only a handgun, are in the open, see no/little cover, and face one or more opponents). Sheer implacable aggression can win the day when the other guy blinks.

We cynically refer to this move as "Going Leroy Jenkins" (named after a certain gaming clip floating around on the internet).

It has (on occasion) worked exceedingly well during the thousands of raids conducted by my unit across Iraq and Afghanistan. It has (on occasion) worked exceedingly poorly when someone ignored readily available cover in favor of offering themselves up as a bullet sponge.

The circumstances of each gunfight vary and a lion can become a gazelle in an instant (depending upon the volume of fire directed against your person). A stream of nearly in-effect bullets can change your outlook (and plan) in a microsecond.

Your point about ruling the fight through aggressive forward movement is well taken. This thought encapsulates the entire psychological premise for prosecuting a successful bayonet charge. Use the enemy's Fight or Flight Reflex against him. The guy who blinks, panics, misses, or runs...loses.

Indoors (with armed backup), I'll kneel if that's the SOP. Out of doors, anything I need to do to my weapon, I will do somewhere else. I'm not stopping until I body slam the opponent or find cover (whichever comes first).

In a mall, suburban street, bank, or WalMart parking lot...I'm going to be a lot more deliberate and conservative about rushing into anything. In such a circumstance, you are on your own. Find cover and evaluate the situation that you and your handgun find yourself in.

My frame of reference is my 30+ years as a current member of (and tactical instructor for) US Army Special Forces and (previously) the 75th Infantry Regiment. Iraq, Afghanistan, Balkans, Africa, the Levant, Central America, Middle East, Europe, etc..

I still won't kneel in the open (unless it instantly provides me at least some cover or concealment).

YMMV.

matolman1 - Regards.

matolman1 · March 20, 2009, 02:13 PM

+1 on your service Chindo! Now, let's go and take over a small country together!!!

anythingshiny · March 20, 2009, 02:29 PM

if i kneel...my creaky knees would not get me up fast enough. :P

shoot-move-communticate.

there is a lot of good info above..take what works and use it in your training. i've been trained to take a knee when paired up and you have an inoperable weapon so buddy # 1 can press up and cover you..but that does not apply to my daily carry.

i train to shoot, move to cover and communicate.

trlrnr · March 22, 2009, 01:43 AM

I am really glad I posted this question! thank you all for your input. I had a great time reading all of the replys. Alot to think about and I really respect ideas and opinions that I read.

thanks again for all your help.

The Canuck · March 22, 2009, 05:55 PM

I have been trained that the only time your drop to one knee for stoppages and reloads is when doing entry. I won't bore you with the details, but long story short, it keeps your guys from firing into you as you are now pretty much usless until you get your firearm running again, and then you don't move until it is called all clear. Standing up can get you shot otherwise... Having just read Chindo's & matolman's posts, they cover the details better than I am willing to.

In other situations, you move as fast as you can and get to cover ASAP while reloading. Under fire hard cover is your best friend, concealment is a nice acquaintance to make for a short period of time. As has been said, cover is only to be used to keep your momentum, not to cower behind until the shooting stops.

ECHOONE · March 23, 2009, 09:33 AM

It will depend on circumstances but for most part you always want to keep moving,a moving target is harder to hit,never go to prone or knee to reload it slows you down and makes you a stagnant target practice loading on the move,if your behind cover yes go to your knee of course again depends on your circumstances but also remember your circumstances if the aggressor is shooting at you with a .30 rifle dont be hugging that concrete block that .30 cal will come right thru and get you along with fragments sometimes you need space between your cover for more then one reason! Buy a good book on Tactics

Brit · March 26, 2009, 03:15 AM

An interesting drill (watching El Al shooters train) draw, stepping to left at the same time, retract the slide, fire three times into target 10m away, then run like mad, covering that 10m very quickly!

Shoot ballon taped to deck! If you are shot whist running forward?
Sxxx happens. Terrorists don't go home.

Yes, and always take a knee when empty.

jgcoastie · March 26, 2009, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Yes, and always take a knee when empty.

FWIW, we are taught to never, ever go to our knee(s) for anything... The lone exception being when restraining an already compliant suspect while they are prone on their belly. It's also worth noting that our partner would be covering you while you did so...

Best bet: End the fight quickly, if you can't, you need more range time... Honestly, with most gunfights happening between 3-20', you should not need to reload if you've done your homework at the range and/or training course...

March 20, 2009, 10:13 AM	#28
matolman1 Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Location: TN Posts: 72	My post on changing mags from the kneeling position needs clarification. My training and life experience is based on 12 years as a member of the Israeli security services (IDF and Border Police) as well as training annually with the top firearms instructors in Israel (ex commando's and General Security Service (SHABAK) instructors/agents). (I currently reside in TN). Most of my training, and my advice, is based on an Israeli anti-terror / close protection platform. We have always been instructed and drilled to go down to a knee, head up, while reloading mags. Transitions (from primary to secondary) are done while standing/moving. We are always drilled that you always move forward, towards your enemy. A combat soldier never moves backwards. Going down on one knee does not put you in a negative frame of mind. Rather, it removes you from the direct line of fire (threat must reposition his aim since you were standing, now are kneeling) and makes you a smaller target and gives you a very stable shooting platform if needed. From the kneeling position you can transition to the standing/crouching, charging position very quickly. In Israel, we do not have the luxury of a retreat mindset (live to fight another day) because the entire country can be run over in a few hours. You lose a war in Israel and you lose everything. On a static range, with static targets (and yes, a 'pop up' target is a static target in my opinion), where you basically know where your enemy/threat is and is not, it is easy to shoot on the move/advancing towards cover/concealment, where you can then "trade shots" with the threat/target. During a terror attack when you do not have the luxury of running to get behind cover while the threat goes on a rampage and you are the only person around to stop the threat from killing others, you must advance immediately with speed and extreme violence of action, towards your 'target'. (obviously using proper technique). Most of the time this translates into charging the threat head on, shooting either while running at full speed (using proper technique)(note I say full speed, not a trot or a jog or a Groucho walk) or charging the target from an angle, stopping briefly (using proper "breaking" technique) and eliminating the threat. You shoot until the target is neutralized, kneel, change magazine, crouch and scan 360 degrees searching for additional threats and then verify your kill. You do not train to reholster your weapon until all of this is completed. Yes, you might not survive the confrontation. You may get wounded. But, the idea of running behind cover (which might be a distance away) while this attack is taking place when you are the person who has the ability to stop it by charging the threat, is almost unheard of in Israel. I understand that most of what is discussed here is based on a criminal threat, but take for instance a church shooting. A lone gunman enters a church and starts shooting. You are carrying to church (like you should be) and there are several hundred people between where you are standing and the gunner. You cannot afford to find cover and return fire from a distance, too many innocents in the way and too much ammo wasted (he will be better prepared and better stocked for this than you, no question). You MUST take the attack to the attacker. You MUST take his advantage away. The way to do this is to move on him, towards him, either head on or using a flank. I bring examples like these for a reason. My point is that by using cover as your primary position (and your primary thought during an attack and training tool during range sessions), you run the risk of bogging yourself down behind that cover, allowing your enemy to advance on you and/or continue on his rampage. Realize that when you are behind cover (like a car engine block or a tree), you are taking your line of sight off of your target and allowing him to pinpoint your position, keeping YOU in place. Going down on one knee to change a magazine will most likely be done after the primary threat is neutralized and you are about to scan for additional targets. I am not saying that you should always be in the open, on the charge. There are certainly times where you have an ability to maintain cover and return fire (i.e. a roadblock you are at, a barrier you are already behind and the threat is close enough for accurate, deadly return fire from you, being involved in a planned ambush where you are hit by multiple threats on multiple sides....etc...) But, in the end, the guy who is moving towards his target will rule the fight. Notice, I say towards his target and not towards cover. YES, if you can use cover while moving towards your target, great! But you must train yourself to instantly return fire when engaged and then charge your target if he is at a reasonable distance (within about 40 feet). I just wanted to clarify my position on the question and I do realize that this is a very circumstance based scenario question. I know people won't agree but hey, thats why there are multiple schools of training and theory because a gunfight, a battle, is dynamic and never the same. You must use all tools available to win the fight. My training is based on certain life experince in an area of the world where combat and anti-terror operations are common occurance for some people. Most of all, you must use speed of action and extreme violence with no mercy. Ben Last edited by matolman1; March 20, 2009 at 10:23 AM.

March 20, 2009, 02:29 PM	#36
anythingshiny Member Join Date: June 20, 2008 Location: Raleigh NC Posts: 96	if i kneel...my creaky knees would not get me up fast enough. :P shoot-move-communticate. there is a lot of good info above..take what works and use it in your training. i've been trained to take a knee when paired up and you have an inoperable weapon so buddy # 1 can press up and cover you..but that does not apply to my daily carry. i train to shoot, move to cover and communicate. __________________ O.O.D.A Observe. Overreact. Destroy. Apologize.

March 22, 2009, 05:55 PM	#38
The Canuck Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2006 Location: Calgary Alberta, Canada Posts: 307	I have been trained that the only time your drop to one knee for stoppages and reloads is when doing entry. I won't bore you with the details, but long story short, it keeps your guys from firing into you as you are now pretty much usless until you get your firearm running again, and then you don't move until it is called all clear. Standing up can get you shot otherwise... Having just read Chindo's & matolman's posts, they cover the details better than I am willing to. In other situations, you move as fast as you can and get to cover ASAP while reloading. Under fire hard cover is your best friend, concealment is a nice acquaintance to make for a short period of time. As has been said, cover is only to be used to keep your momentum, not to cower behind until the shooting stops. __________________ "If you put one in the snot locker, it doesn't matter what calibre it is". Last edited by The Canuck; March 22, 2009 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Just read the rest of the thread.

March 20, 2009, 10:54 AM	#30
mrray13 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 911	i want to train with Ben! what part of tn are you in? in any case, our local MTU, training unit, trains us both stationary, ie; standing, kneeling, sitting and prone, and transition reload, ie: standing/kneeling, kneeling/prone, prone/standing, etc. chuck tries to instill the idea you might have to reload while relocating, and you had better be good at it. i , for one, vote that one should practice just about every circumstance one can imagine. there is no such thing as a typical firefight, IMHO.

March 20, 2009, 11:08 AM	#31
matolman1 Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Location: TN Posts: 72	You take the knee after the initial threat has been neutralized. The knee is for reducing yourself as a target while changing magazines and clearing malfunctions. Realize, you are on the knee for maybe 2 seconds total. You are really moving forward the whole time, but taking a very brief interlude to change a mag or clear a malfunction. (think of it like a lunge..you are going forward, down on one knee and then back up moving forward.) I am located in Memphis and run training sessions for people here as well as in other parts of the country and in Israel. www.israeliprotectiveservice.com

March 20, 2009, 11:11 AM	#32
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	As an aside to matolman, I read an account of an Israeli citizen shooting a suicide bomber before any damage was done. During an interview, the hero shooter was asked if he was a police officer or IDF member. He replied, "No, I'm a shoe salesman." That's as it should be!

March 20, 2009, 11:38 AM	#33
matolman1 Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Location: TN Posts: 72	Damn straight.

March 20, 2009, 02:13 PM	#35
matolman1 Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Location: TN Posts: 72	+1 on your service Chindo! Now, let's go and take over a small country together!!!

March 22, 2009, 01:43 AM	#37
trlrnr Member Join Date: March 15, 2009 Location: maine Posts: 35	I am really glad I posted this question! thank you all for your input. I had a great time reading all of the replys. Alot to think about and I really respect ideas and opinions that I read. thanks again for all your help.

March 23, 2009, 09:33 AM	#39
ECHOONE Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 204	It will depend on circumstances but for most part you always want to keep moving,a moving target is harder to hit,never go to prone or knee to reload it slows you down and makes you a stagnant target practice loading on the move,if your behind cover yes go to your knee of course again depends on your circumstances but also remember your circumstances if the aggressor is shooting at you with a .30 rifle dont be hugging that concrete block that .30 cal will come right thru and get you along with fragments sometimes you need space between your cover for more then one reason! Buy a good book on Tactics

March 26, 2009, 03:15 AM	#40
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	An interesting drill (watching El Al shooters train) draw, stepping to left at the same time, retract the slide, fire three times into target 10m away, then run like mad, covering that 10m very quickly! Shoot ballon taped to deck! If you are shot whist running forward? Sxxx happens. Terrorists don't go home. Yes, and always take a knee when empty.