Following the 12 g. HD thread - Page 2

Sport45 · January 23, 2012, 08:16 PM

A Remington 870 with a standard size magazine loaded with 00, 1, or 4 buckshot will do an excellent job of covering the stairs. The idea (in my case anyway) is to protect my family. I'll do that by ensuring that anyone who breaks in downstairs doesn't make their way up to us. I'm not about to go down there if I think someone may be waiting.

We have cell phones and are willing to wait for the Sheriff's dept to come and root out anybody that needs rooting out.

chadstrickland · January 25, 2012, 01:33 PM

I have seen high brass number six kill plenty of deer.

I have heard alot of people say they prefer a shotgun over rifle for HD because of the wide spread of the shot gives you greater hit probability.

Every time I have shot buckshot or birds hot within ten yards it looks like one big hole with maybe a couple stray pellets a inch or so away.

shurshot · January 25, 2012, 08:11 PM

Easy ChadStrikland. Mention #6 Birdshot and folks start swinging around here...LOL!!!!

lefteye · January 25, 2012, 08:57 PM

Yes, you better duck Chad. I am curious about these two statements in your post:

"the wide spread of the shot gives you greater hit probability."

and

"Every time I have shot buckshot or birds hot within ten yards it looks like one big hole with maybe a couple stray pellets a inch or so away."

Pick a shot distance - any shot distance - only one of those statements can be correct at any specific distance, be it 5 feet, 5 yards, 30 yards, or whatever.

So, which of your two statements is true?

If #6 birdshot is a good deer load, why do hunters find #6 shot still inside small targets such as squirrels, rabbits, pheasants, ducks, etc? How can I expect a #6 shot pellet to go through both lungs of a deer if that same pellet won't go through a squirrel, rabbit, pheasant or duck?

C0untZer0 · January 25, 2012, 10:10 PM

Does anyone know if the barrel for the 930 Field model is interchangeable with the 930 SPX - 8 Shot ?

9ballbilly · January 26, 2012, 01:47 AM

my personal HD shotgun is an 870 w/standard magazine. Loaded with either #1 buckshot or 00. I definately agree with the no warning shot policy. If I was in a situation that escalated to "condition red" I feel the threat needs to be neutralized immediately to protect myself and family.

While I've got nothing against autoloaders, I like the pump action as I believe
the sound of a round being chambered to be psychologically crippling to many would-be BG's, it would also serve as a first and only warning.

BillCA · January 26, 2012, 04:55 AM

In a 12-gauge, I'd go with #1 buckshot indoors. Slightly more pellets per round (.30 vs. .33 cal). This helps increase your ability to make hits. #00 buck will obviously work.

For a 20-gauge, your choices are more limited. I've found some #2 and #3 buckshot - Winchester - and that is what my 20-ga 870. In both, the last round is a slug. The extra recoil lets me know it's time to reload.

I wouldn't place too much faith in the concept that the sound of a pump shotgun will cause an intruder to get religious. It can also serve as a warning that someone is awake and give him time to prepare.

Also, think about your bedroom door (and possibly the doorways of your children). Do all of them allow you to fire from a strong-hand position (i.e. right handed shooters stand to the left of the door frame). If not, how good will you be shooting with your weak hand?

Training and practice are essential to success.

hangglider · January 26, 2012, 05:48 AM

I too seriously doubt that on the balance the racking of a shell has any benefit intimidation-wise--might even be a negative in terms of giving you away.

Which to me raises an HD readiness question. Do you keep a shell chambered and safety on, or unchambered but safety off, or unchambered and safety on? My understanding is that most shotguns can AD/ND with a simple "falling over" or jarring since the safety engages nothing more than the trigger.

Sport45 · January 26, 2012, 07:51 AM

Quote:

While I've got nothing against autoloaders, I like the pump action as I believe the sound of a round being chambered to be psychologically crippling to many would-be BG's, it would also serve as a first and only warning.

The only warning someone in my house might hear before I fire is me pushing the safety off.

Long before that they will hear me declare that the law is being notified and they'd best be making their exit.

**Frank Ettin** · January 26, 2012, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadstrickland

...I have heard alot of people say they prefer a shotgun over rifle for HD because of the wide spread of the shot gives you greater hit probability.

Every time I have shot buckshot or birds hot within ten yards it looks like one big hole with maybe a couple stray pellets a inch or so away.

Chad is correct. His point is that at "across the room" distances a shotgun pattern is still very small. You still need to be able to shoot it accurately and not rely on a shot patter to guarantee you a hit.

lefteye · January 26, 2012, 01:00 PM

Of course shot patterns start at bore diameter and increase in diameter (and length) down range. I may have misunderstood his intent in his statement that many people prefer a shotgun for HD because the wide spread of the shot gives you greater hit probability. Nevertheless, I do believe #6 shot is a poor choice for a self defense load even in an apartment.

chadstrickland · January 26, 2012, 02:37 PM

What post

And all I will say is that you reaaally need to find a new place to conduct your research bud

.

C0untZer0 · January 26, 2012, 03:15 PM

I don't think a human skull or throat would react any differently than what you've described happening to the deer.

It's more how #6 - even high brass loads, are going to react when hitting a leather jacket, a sweater, a few inches of fat and an inch or so of muscle...

Is it going to get all the way back to vital tissue?

It might, against some people it might. But probably #6 is not going to reach the vital tissue consistently, and not against a large percentage of the population.

If I knew that the only people who were going to break into my house were scrawny characters 10" from front to back, and that they were only going to be wearing T-shirts, and I absolutely could accurately put my shot right where their heart was...

I'd still use #1 Buck

hangglider · January 26, 2012, 03:18 PM

All in favor of moving on past the load--say "aye"

"aye"

C0untZer0 · January 26, 2012, 03:28 PM

What else is there to talk about on this thread? I think we covered the phased approach already...

hangglider · January 26, 2012, 03:42 PM

Call me stupid--but maybe it makes sense to talk about barrel types and chokes used and their relative impact. Improved...Modified etc.

lefteye · January 26, 2012, 03:48 PM

Iowa law requires slugs if you are hunting deer with a shotgun, as well as single projectiles for any other firearm that is allowed for deer hunting, e.g., muzzle loaders, specified handgun cartridges and center fire rifles .24 caliber or larger.

It is my understanding that Iowa deer are much larger than Alabama deer.

I never shoot for the head or neck unless I am standing over a live deer that has already been shot.

nate45 · January 26, 2012, 03:51 PM

Hunting deer with birdshot is illegal and unethical.

If however, someone decides to load their shotgun with birdshot for defense, thats their business.

C0untZer0 · January 26, 2012, 03:55 PM

I see the allure of having a 6-8" shot pattern on an intruder, theoretically you can puncture both lungs, puncture the heart and maybe one or two major blood vessels.

But it all is kind of predicated on getting that perfet shot at the perfect distance. If you're not getting the perfect shot at the perfect distance you're missing your target and sending one or two or more pellets out of the room (I'm sure this resurects the birdshot argument).

So anyway, I think it's probably better to try to have a tight shot group, I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

I think Fedral's FLITECONTROL design has more of an impact on shot pattern size than choke.

Stevie-Ray · January 26, 2012, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Call me stupid--but maybe it makes sense to talk about barrel types and chokes used and their relative impact. Improved...Modified etc.

Not stupid at all, but it is 1Hobie's thread. If he doesn't mind, it's a good question. My SPX is cylinder bore, of course, so chokes don't mean anything to me, but what about the guys that might be using their field guns for double duty? IC perhaps, for HD, or what?

C0untZer0 · January 26, 2012, 04:44 PM

Stevie-Ray how do you like your SPX ??

I thought the SPXs were past their initial bugs, but a guy on the Mossberg owners forum bought a new from factory one in July of last year and it had a burr in the feed tube like some of the earlier models.

I hope Mossberg isn't experiencing problems with these again...

1Hobie · January 26, 2012, 05:25 PM

My question was answered many moons ago. I certainly didn't mean to
re-fire up the debate that has ensued. I've learned a great deal however that has and will influence my future purchases.

Now it's pump or semi-auto....

Carry on.

Hobie

Stevie-Ray · January 26, 2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Stevie-Ray how do you like your SPX ??

I hope Mossberg isn't experiencing problems with these again...

I've had mine for a little over a year and love it. It hasn't hiccupped once, including crappy target loads. What I shoot most out of it is 00 buck from Win/Rem, since it's widely available around here, and it is generally considered the #2 load for HD, so I like to have it around. I make certain I stay current with it, but the SPX seems to shoot everything I put in it rather splendidly. Soft-shooting due to the action, even with all kinds of buck. And BTW, don't let anybody tell you you can't get a proper cheek-weld due to the sights being too high, because the stock is adjustable. I've noticed they never seem to include that little factoid when they're complaining about a gun they don't own.

I suppose that if it ever craps out on me, I'll be PO'd at Mossberg, but for now the love-affair continues, and I simply can't think of a better HD shotgun at the price I got mine for.

eaglehd00 · January 27, 2012, 12:10 PM

I have loaded my HD with Hornady zombie max 00 buck, just in case that day approaches.

January 23, 2012, 08:16 PM	#26
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	A Remington 870 with a standard size magazine loaded with 00, 1, or 4 buckshot will do an excellent job of covering the stairs. The idea (in my case anyway) is to protect my family. I'll do that by ensuring that anyone who breaks in downstairs doesn't make their way up to us. I'm not about to go down there if I think someone may be waiting. We have cell phones and are willing to wait for the Sheriff's dept to come and root out anybody that needs rooting out. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

January 25, 2012, 01:33 PM	#27
chadstrickland Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2011 Location: alabama Posts: 537	I have seen high brass number six kill plenty of deer. I have heard alot of people say they prefer a shotgun over rifle for HD because of the wide spread of the shot gives you greater hit probability. Every time I have shot buckshot or birds hot within ten yards it looks like one big hole with maybe a couple stray pellets a inch or so away. __________________ Two weapons that was designed by the same man still in use by the us military 100 years later...1911 and m2...is there anything that comes close.....lol annd maybe perhaps a sig sauer p226 tac ops edition..

January 25, 2012, 08:57 PM	#29
lefteye Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Posts: 1,433	Yes, you better duck Chad. I am curious about these two statements in your post: "the wide spread of the shot gives you greater hit probability." and "Every time I have shot buckshot or birds hot within ten yards it looks like one big hole with maybe a couple stray pellets a inch or so away." Pick a shot distance - any shot distance - only one of those statements can be correct at any specific distance, be it 5 feet, 5 yards, 30 yards, or whatever. So, which of your two statements is true? If #6 birdshot is a good deer load, why do hunters find #6 shot still inside small targets such as squirrels, rabbits, pheasants, ducks, etc? How can I expect a #6 shot pellet to go through both lungs of a deer if that same pellet won't go through a squirrel, rabbit, pheasant or duck? __________________ Vietnam Veteran ('69-'70) NRA Life Member RMEF Life Member

January 26, 2012, 04:55 AM	#32
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	In a 12-gauge, I'd go with #1 buckshot indoors. Slightly more pellets per round (.30 vs. .33 cal). This helps increase your ability to make hits. #00 buck will obviously work. For a 20-gauge, your choices are more limited. I've found some #2 and #3 buckshot - Winchester - and that is what my 20-ga 870. In both, the last round is a slug. The extra recoil lets me know it's time to reload. I wouldn't place too much faith in the concept that the sound of a pump shotgun will cause an intruder to get religious. It can also serve as a warning that someone is awake and give him time to prepare. Also, think about your bedroom door (and possibly the doorways of your children). Do all of them allow you to fire from a strong-hand position (i.e. right handed shooters stand to the left of the door frame). If not, how good will you be shooting with your weak hand? Training and practice are essential to success. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

January 26, 2012, 01:00 PM	#36
lefteye Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Posts: 1,433	Of course shot patterns start at bore diameter and increase in diameter (and length) down range. I may have misunderstood his intent in his statement that many people prefer a shotgun for HD because the wide spread of the shot gives you greater hit probability. Nevertheless, I do believe #6 shot is a poor choice for a self defense load even in an apartment. __________________ Vietnam Veteran ('69-'70) NRA Life Member RMEF Life Member

January 25, 2012, 08:11 PM	#28
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	Easy ChadStrikland. Mention #6 Birdshot and folks start swinging around here...LOL!!!!

January 25, 2012, 10:10 PM	#30
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Does anyone know if the barrel for the 930 Field model is interchangeable with the 930 SPX - 8 Shot ?

January 26, 2012, 01:47 AM	#31
9ballbilly Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: northeast Florida Posts: 611	my personal HD shotgun is an 870 w/standard magazine. Loaded with either #1 buckshot or 00. I definately agree with the no warning shot policy. If I was in a situation that escalated to "condition red" I feel the threat needs to be neutralized immediately to protect myself and family. While I've got nothing against autoloaders, I like the pump action as I believe the sound of a round being chambered to be psychologically crippling to many would-be BG's, it would also serve as a first and only warning.

January 26, 2012, 05:48 AM	#33
hangglider Junior member Join Date: December 24, 2011 Posts: 212	I too seriously doubt that on the balance the racking of a shell has any benefit intimidation-wise--might even be a negative in terms of giving you away. Which to me raises an HD readiness question. Do you keep a shell chambered and safety on, or unchambered but safety off, or unchambered and safety on? My understanding is that most shotguns can AD/ND with a simple "falling over" or jarring since the safety engages nothing more than the trigger.

January 26, 2012, 02:37 PM	#37
chadstrickland Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2011 Location: alabama Posts: 537	What post And all I will say is that you reaaally need to find a new place to conduct your research bud . __________________ Two weapons that was designed by the same man still in use by the us military 100 years later...1911 and m2...is there anything that comes close.....lol annd maybe perhaps a sig sauer p226 tac ops edition.. Last edited by chadstrickland; January 26, 2012 at 04:54 PM.

January 26, 2012, 03:15 PM	#38
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I don't think a human skull or throat would react any differently than what you've described happening to the deer. It's more how #6 - even high brass loads, are going to react when hitting a leather jacket, a sweater, a few inches of fat and an inch or so of muscle... Is it going to get all the way back to vital tissue? It might, against some people it might. But probably #6 is not going to reach the vital tissue consistently, and not against a large percentage of the population. If I knew that the only people who were going to break into my house were scrawny characters 10" from front to back, and that they were only going to be wearing T-shirts, and I absolutely could accurately put my shot right where their heart was... I'd still use #1 Buck

January 26, 2012, 03:18 PM	#39
hangglider Junior member Join Date: December 24, 2011 Posts: 212	All in favor of moving on past the load--say "aye" "aye"

January 26, 2012, 03:28 PM	#40
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	What else is there to talk about on this thread? I think we covered the phased approach already...

January 26, 2012, 03:42 PM	#41
hangglider Junior member Join Date: December 24, 2011 Posts: 212	Call me stupid--but maybe it makes sense to talk about barrel types and chokes used and their relative impact. Improved...Modified etc.

January 26, 2012, 03:48 PM	#42
lefteye Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Posts: 1,433	Iowa law requires slugs if you are hunting deer with a shotgun, as well as single projectiles for any other firearm that is allowed for deer hunting, e.g., muzzle loaders, specified handgun cartridges and center fire rifles .24 caliber or larger. It is my understanding that Iowa deer are much larger than Alabama deer. I never shoot for the head or neck unless I am standing over a live deer that has already been shot. __________________ Vietnam Veteran ('69-'70) NRA Life Member RMEF Life Member

January 26, 2012, 03:51 PM	#43
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	Hunting deer with birdshot is illegal and unethical. If however, someone decides to load their shotgun with birdshot for defense, thats their business. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<) Last edited by nate45; January 27, 2012 at 03:50 AM. Reason: chad saw the light

January 26, 2012, 03:55 PM	#44
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	I see the allure of having a 6-8" shot pattern on an intruder, theoretically you can puncture both lungs, puncture the heart and maybe one or two major blood vessels. But it all is kind of predicated on getting that perfet shot at the perfect distance. If you're not getting the perfect shot at the perfect distance you're missing your target and sending one or two or more pellets out of the room (I'm sure this resurects the birdshot argument). So anyway, I think it's probably better to try to have a tight shot group, I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I think Fedral's FLITECONTROL design has more of an impact on shot pattern size than choke.

January 26, 2012, 04:44 PM	#46
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Stevie-Ray how do you like your SPX ?? I thought the SPXs were past their initial bugs, but a guy on the Mossberg owners forum bought a new from factory one in July of last year and it had a burr in the feed tube like some of the earlier models. I hope Mossberg isn't experiencing problems with these again...

January 26, 2012, 05:25 PM	#47
1Hobie Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2010 Location: west central Illinois Posts: 277	Nope don't mind at all My question was answered many moons ago. I certainly didn't mean to re-fire up the debate that has ensued. I've learned a great deal however that has and will influence my future purchases. Now it's pump or semi-auto.... Carry on. Hobie

January 27, 2012, 12:10 PM	#49
eaglehd00 Junior Member Join Date: January 25, 2012 Location: Wi Posts: 13	I have loaded my HD with Hornady zombie max 00 buck, just in case that day approaches.