AR or 1911 For HD

[a7mmnut]

Some good thoughts here. I also agree, though I often find myself in reverse arms. A bad mag will instantly change any semi into a single shot. Autos for primary, revolvers for backup. I keep remembering that video of the off-duty LEO in the bank having a shootout with the bank robber while several citizens stand by with mouths agape. Had he not wrestled the outlaw's gun away after his own BUG jammed, it would have been a very bad day. I still can't believe both of them missed at what looked like a distance of 6-7 feet.
He's also a poster boy for "Why Not To Ankle Carry". I feel the need for a short pump action in .410..........Hmmmmmmmmmm.....................

-7-

[xjmox14x]

Semi Problomatic,

I honestly don't think you're a troll. So, in saying that, before posting again, please, PLEASE do some more research on the topic. It's better to not give any information at all than to give blatantly false info. You talk about reloading manuals so I assume you at least have an affinity for the shooting sports. But then you say things like a .223 round travels too fast to do any real damage, or that high capacity magazines are 100% illegal because it says so right there, and I can't possibly take you seriously. So again, please do some good hardcore research on the topic.

[a7mmnut]

penetrationcht.jpg




Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version

By Chuck Hawks



Caliber Load Bullet MV (fps) ME (ft. lbs.) Penetration (10% gel.) AIT (goats at Strasbourg) One Shot Stop % Test Brl.
.22LR CCI,Rem,Win Hi.Vel. 37grLHP 975 78 10.3" n/a 29% unk.
.22LR CCI Stinger 32gr.LHP 1262 113 9.8" n/a 34% 6" Colt
.22WMR Winchester 40gr.JHP 1400 174 13" n/a 42% 6.5" Ruger
.25ACP All 50gr.FMJ 760 64 18" n/a 23% unk.
.32ACP Winchester 60gr.STHP 970 125 6.5" n/a 63% 3.2" Wthr.
.32Mag Federal 85gr.JHP 1050 208 n/a n/a n/a 4" H&R"
.380ACP Federal Hydra-Shok 90gr.JHP 1007 200 10.5" 10.94 sec. 69% 3.6" SIG
.380ACP Fed, Rem, Win. 95gr.FMJ 955 190 17" 22.8 sec. 51% 3.6" SIG
.38Spec. Winchester +P 158gr.LHP 790 280 15.2" n/a 67% 2" S&W
.38Spec Winchester +P 158gr.LHP 996 342 15.2" 10.76 sec. 78% 4" S&W
.38Spec. Federal 158gr.RNL 708 176 28.5" 33.68 sec. 52% 4" S&W
9x19 Cor-Bon +P 115gr.JHP 1321 454 14.2" 8.92 sec. 91% 4" Glock
9x19 Rem.Golden Saber+P 124gr.JHP 1180 384 12" n/a 83% unk.
.38Super Remington +P 115gr.JHP 1300 431 n/a n/a 88% 5" test
.357Mag. Remington 125gr.SJHP 1468 583 13" 7.34 sec. 96% 4" Colt
.357Mag. Remington Med.Vel. 125gr.SJHP 1205 413 15.5" 7.94 sec. 83% 4" Colt
.40S&W Federal Hydra-Shok 180gr.JHP 950 361 15" 8.32 sec. 89% 4" S&W
.40S&W Rem.Golden Saber 165gr.JHP 1150 485 12" n/a 94% 4" S&W
10mm Winchester 175gr.STHP 1250 607 12.8" n/a 92% 4.25" S&W
10mmMV Federal Hydra-Shok 180gr.JHP 980 383 15" n/a 87% 4.25" S&W
.41Mag. Winchester 210gr.JHP 1300 789 17.5" n/a 82% 4" S&W
.44Spec. Winchester 200gr.STHP 819 298 10.4" n/a 75% 4" S&W
.44Mag. Winchester 210gr.STHP 1301 788 15.1" n/a 90% 4" S&W
.45ACP Federal Hydra-Shok 230gr.JHP 819 366 13.3" 8.40 sec. 94% 5" Colt
.45ACP Fed, Rem, Win. 230 FMJ 839 360 27" 13.84 sec. 63% 5" Colt
.45Colt Federal 225LHP 900 405 19.5" n/a 78% 4" S&W


Please Note: The above data is drawn from various sources including the book Handgun Stopping Power by Marshall and Sanow, and various articles in magazines such as Handguns. To order the latest books by Marshall and Sanow, follow my link to Evan Marshal's Stopping Power web page.

For experienced shooters the headings of most of the columns above are self-explanatory. For everyone else: "Caliber" is the common name of the cartridge tested; "Load" is the brand of ammunition tested; "Bullet" is the weight (in grains) and configuration (JHP, for instance, means jacketed hollow point) of the bullet; "MV" is the standard abbreviation for muzzle velocity; "ME" is the abbreviation for muzzle energy; "Penetration (10% gel)" is the measured penetration of the bullet when fired into a block of standard ordinance gelatin, which is used to simulate soft tissue; "AIT (goats at Strasbourg)" refers to a famous European experiment where a great many goats of the approximate size and cardio-vascular capacity of a human being were shot broadside through the lungs with a variety of handgun loads and the 'Average Incapacitation Time' (in seconds) from the shot until the animal's collapse was recorded; "One shot stop %" is the percentage of one shot stops in actual street shootings as culled from police records by Marshall and Sanow; "Test brl." means the length of the test pistol's barrel.

For a greatly expanded version of this chart with many more entries, see the "Expanded Handgun Power Chart" on the Tables, Charts and Lists Page.





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Back to the Handgun Information Page

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Copyright 1997, 2007 by Chuck Hawks. All rights reserved.



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-7-

[rickyjames]

i love 1911's but there is a reason the military hand out more rifles than handguns. they are more versatile. if you can have just 1 gun it should be the most versatile. if it will be a first gun it should be the most versatile. of the 2 guns you mentioned the ar is the most versatile.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

First, you need to understand that a .223/5.56 is going to do a LOT more damage than a .45, particularly if you aren't limited to FMJ ammo. You also need to understand that ANYTHING that will reliably penetrate 12" of ballistic gel (the FBI recommended minimum) is going to go through several interior walls.

As far as just straight out effectiveness, the AR15 is going to be more accurate, have more power per round, and have more rounds on hand. If you know you are going to have a gunfight, you should definitely have the AR15.

On the flipside, the AR15 that is locked in your gunsafe doesn't do you as much good as the 1911 on your hip. The 1911 is easier to have with you when you need it and take where you need it.

My general recommendation would be to buy whichever one you are going to actually go out and get training with; because without training, neither one is going to do you much good.

Now on to some of the myths in this thread:

Think about it, its a .22 round moving at like 3200 to 3800 FPS. It is quite possibly the worst HD weapon you could think of getting.

On the contrary, .223 is a great home defense weapon that does more damage than most handgun rounds while often penetrating less (assuming wise ammunition choice) should there be a miss. For more on this see:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=388269
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=360645
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=146306

Or some kind of revolver, so you don't have to worry about jams due to spring compression

I wouldn't worry about spring-compression. Rather than drag this thread even further off-topic, I'll just say that searching the Handgun forums will provide plenty of discussion on this topic.

Oh yeah, its illegal for civilians to own 30rnd mags. thats why it says for military or police use only on them.

Not illegal at all, unless you happen to live in a state that still bans higher capacity magazines (and even some of those states allow magazines built prior to 1994). The Military/LEO only markings are from the 1994 Federal ban on Assault Weapons. That law expired in 2004.

Along those same lines, it's going to look bad to a jury when you have to explain why you thought you needed 30 rounds for HD and wanted to be able to engage them at 400yds.

It might or it might now. Part of it depends on whether you can articulate good reasons why you chose what you did (and even better if experts agree with you). Using the same thing your local police department uses in similar circumstances and knowing WHY they selected it can be a big help in this regard.

I got my .223 info from my hornady reloader book. A remington 223 40grain V-MAX with 27.8gr. of AA 2460 pushes 3800 fps. And .223 at close range goes straight through

Well, I can tell you haven't shot any living thing with a 40gr Hornady V-MAX at 3,800fps. Why don't you try that and tell us how that "goes straight through" thing works for you? Or if that is too much trouble, take a look at some of the links posted above.

why do you think SF changed to 6.8 and 7.62 rounds?

The number of SF guys who have ever used 6.8 is really, really small. SF guys tend to choose the tool that suits their mission. Sometimes that will be 7.62x51, sometimes it will be 5.56x45. One thing you may notice though, is that none of them are picking .45ACP to replace a 5.56 weapon.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Bart has is so right. Training is more important for HD then technobabble about ARs vs. 1911s.

A SW Model 10 with a high functioning brain behind it is better than the Thunderbuster Supreme XL4600.

[WhyteP38]

Not illegal at all, unless you happen to live in a state that still bans higher capacity magazines (and even some of those states allow magazines built prior to 1994). The Military/LEO only markings are from the 1994 Federal ban on Assault Weapons. That law expired in 2004.

To add to this, for those who wonder why mags (and some AR15 lower receivers) are still being made with such markings, consider that it costs less to keep making products with the equipment at hand rather than create new equipment without the markings. In other words, the markings are not what is important; the laws of your state are what is important and trump any markings. Bart is 100% correct.

[stargazer65]

I'd rather be behind the rifle in a gunfight because:

"When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Mexican Proverb...and it's true."

However, because I can't easily carry the AR aound and I'm not always in gunfights, I'd pick the 1911 over the AR, and then train profusely with it because:

Training is more important for HD then technobabble about ARs vs. 1911s.

[Tucker 1371]

its going too fast for any significant damage

Yup, that's why a .38 snubby is WAAAAY superior to a 4" .357 Mag...

Training is more important for HD then technobabble about ARs vs. 1911s.

+1, Whatever you get make sure that A) It's very reliable and B) You can afford ammo to practice, practice, practice, and then practice some more.

[Reidman]

Welcome to TFL. I think you have learned a wealth of information in this thread already. Keep reading and posting on here and of course taking time to go to the range and no one can call you a noob

I have to agree with those who say get a Remington 870 with some 00, 000 or #4 buck and rest easy. I am a fan of the barricade school of thought when it comes to HD. That's why its called Home DEFENSE... not Home OFFENSE Look at getting a dog or an alarm system if you have the funds. Having an early warning greatly increases your advantage in a HD scenario.

1911's are a fantastic. I love shooting them. IMHO I believe they serve better in the hands of more advanced shooters. Look at a striker fired or double action only pistol like a Glock, M&P, or Springfield XD. No safety external safety means YOU need to be the safety by keeping your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot, but it is less to think about if you're awakened by the crash in the middle of the night.

Since you're new to firearms... TAKE A HANDGUN COURSE! As recommended by 1911rocks read some literature by Massad Ayoob. He even has some Youtube Videos

I know all the Military, LEOs, instructors, professional shooters, and everyone else that believes in responsible firearm ownership on here will agree... the best weapon is the one between your ears. Hone that weapon by training and education about the subject.

[1911 Jim]

The police are using the AR15 from a vastly different approach than any HD situation I can think of. Saying the police use them to clear a building is like saying GM uses a cutting torch to make your truck. You're defending from within the house, you're not taking any long shots (unless you live in a converted warehouse or mansion).

Try advancing out of your bedroom with that m4gery sometime and see how easily maneuvered it is.

I'd much rather be able to maintain as much concealment as possible by only needing to present an arm and one eye, than need to put my upper torso around the door to get the muzzle on target.

An AR is better than nothing, but I wouldn't personally choose it for going "inside -> out".


Aside from eliminating direct threats on the main floor, I wouldn't be clearing my house at all. I'm only concerned with getting my kid across the hall and into the master bedroom with the wife (who's also going to be armed), and making sure no one is capable of getting to them, and also making sure anyone shooting at me (as remote a possibility as that is) is not in the same line as them (backstop). All the stuff is insured, they're not replaceable.

Once those two goals are met - I'm waiting for the cops.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The police are using the AR15 from a vastly different approach than any HD situation I can think of. Saying the police use them to clear a building is like saying GM uses a cutting torch to make your truck. You're defending from within the house, you're not taking any long shots (unless you live in a converted warehouse or mansion).

Police do have a different mission than someone defending their house does, and that is always important to keep in mind. However, there are several reasons why the AR15 lends itself well to police that overlap with a good home defense weapon.

1. From a training standpoint, you invest less time in training someone to become proficient at home defense distances with an AR.
2. With proper ammunition selection, the AR is less likely to create a hazard by overpenetration
3. In a stressful situation, it is easier to make hits with an AR

Try advancing out of your bedroom with that m4gery sometime and see how easily maneuvered it is.

Personally, I haven't had any trouble with this; but I have spent time and money on formal training. Training and the quality of the training make all the difference in the world. A guy with an NRA Personal Protection class and a Davis .380 is going to be better off than the guy with a tricked-out AR who considers blasting cans at the garbage dump "training".

I'd much rather be able to maintain as much concealment as possible by only needing to present an arm and one eye, than need to put my upper torso around the door to get the muzzle on target.

Again, that is a training issue. If you can only put rounds on target by putting your entire torso around the door, then you've either got an atypical layout on your doorway or you need more training on the AR. With the modern red dot sights and close ranges, you can really utilize cover and/or concealment in ways that just aren't possible with iron sights.

Aside from eliminating direct threats on the main floor, I wouldn't be clearing my house at all.

I am with you on this. I am not doing any house clearing at all if I can avoid it, and I probably won't be loading up the AR for those "What was that noise in the backyard?" checks at 2am either; but an AR is a plenty capable tool for self-defense, especially if you take the time to get training (which once again is the actual important part of the equation).

Another advantage to training is that if you get good quality training from a reputable trainer, you also have an expert witness who can explain good, sound reasons to the prosecutor/grand jury/law enforcement WHY you were shooting at people with a 50rd Deathmaster in .477 Bunnyexploder loaded with Teflon-tipped heatseeking rounds

FWIW though, every time I take untrained people out and let them shoot handgun, shotgun, and AR15 at a silhouette with a shot timer, they inevitably produce the best accuracy/shortest time with the AR, followed by the shotgun, followed by the handgun.

[Tucker 1371]

a 50rd Deathmaster in .477 Bunnyexploder loaded with Teflon-tipped heatseeking rounds

I want one of these, wonder what the MSRP would be...

[1911 Jim]

My house layout is a rather typical 60's rambler with 3 bedrooms on one hallway which is offset from the kitchen/dining room/living room. It's an "L".

Once you stick your nose out the bedroom door, you're in a 42" hallway. If I took cover on my strong side, it would draw fire to where my family is located. If I came out into the hallway from the rooms, it would expose me to a very large range of better covered positions for the intruder. "Sitting duck" comes to mind.

So my military and civilian training combined with my situational awareness of likely entry points and vantage points inside my house - lead me to believe I'm far more capable of dealing with the situations that may arise in my house with a much shorter weapon. YMMV

You really need to address the actual task before saying "this is better because XYZ."

For an entry team who's wearing chest plates, k pots, and full battle rattle. I'd be hard pressed to want something other than an MP5 or shorty AR. In my house, I want something I can shoot one handed weak side from the cover of a doorway that borders a closet full of clothes which then directs any opposing "misses" AWAY from my wife and child.

That's just me.

[TheMightyNarwhal]

Take this all with a grain of salt because I'm new here, but I've been reading a lot in the forum and doing a lot of thinking about these kind of things lately. I think that what kind of firearm you have should be the last question you try to answer when thinking about home defense. Not in a least important sense, but it's like building a house, if you have a poor foundation, the rest is going to fall to pieces no matter how well it's constructed. The perfect gun for the perfect situation is useless if you've left the back door unlocked accidently and the bg gets you from behind. I think there is a lot of questions 45ACPShooter and I have to answer before deciding between 1911 Vs. Ar.

I started off just by walking around my apartment and town. I'm in a sleepy little college town, with very few bad areas. So I would judge my overall threat level as "Low". Police response is almost instantaneous (On friday nights you can walk from one end of town to the other on the hoods of patrol cars that have pulled over drunk college kids.) And I'm in an area full of houses converted to apartments with thin walls, so controlling collateral damage is of maximum importance. The best home defense weapon for me right now is a baseball bat.

The website that realy drove home exactly what penetrates what is The Box o Truth This guy has done a lot of work testing out how much drywall different firearms and calibers can penetrate, so I would take a look before deciding what is best for your situation. But take the time to build a good foundation for it. Look around and try and put yourself in the bg's shoes. What could he want? How could he get in? What ways could you make your living space harder to get into or a less appealing target? Don't just stick to logic either, what if bg X was bugged out of his mind on drug y? Don't go crazy, string your gutters with barbed wire or something, but try to think about the unexpected. It's a balance between preparedness, and living your life. You can't live your whole life in a cinderblock bunker, but you can't go leaving doors and windows unlocked unnecessarily either.

[Uncle Ben]

If your home situation allows you to hold up in your bedroom in the corner furthest from the door until police arrive, or until someone enters through your door....then I would say the AR since it may be easier to shoot accurately and has more capacity (I would actually vote for a 12ga w/ 00buck for the long gun option).

If your home situation involves children in other rooms of the house and you are unwilling to stay in your room while they may be in danger elsewhere (this is my personal situation)...then I would go for the 1911 since it is MUCH more portable for clearing your home and turning corners, etc., and would be harder to muscle away from you.

[Tunaguy]

SHOTGUN!

[AcridSaint]

I'm going to say whichever one you're going to learn to use.

[biohazurd]

I would prefer a Saiga 12g or a Mossberg 500 to an Ar-15 or 1911. Reason, Personal preference, Nearly 100% 1 shot COM stopping power, and the lesser penetration to walls and ceiling.

[Stevie-Ray]

I am in this situation exactly. I have both, and now use only a .45 ACP 1911 as my carry and HD gun. It has served me well for many years, due to the small confines of my present house and my proficiency with that weapon. The expansive area of my new home has me thinking more and more about my AR-15, though. In an area where the AR isn't so unwieldy, I'd much rather have it at my disposal. To me there's no question of it's superiority in firepower over the handgun. I fully expect to be utilizing the AR as first line of defense when I am fully moved. I also intend to buy a decent shotgun and practice enough to overcome my incompetence with that weapon. In my opinion, you should have both, or even all three, if you want to cover all bases.

[pacerdude]

For me personally I would go with a quality 1911, but I am a fan of handguns. Also I feel that handguns are better for home defense, because they are easier to operate in close quarters.

Also the price of a quality new 1911, should be lower than the price of a new quality AR platform. Plus the AR has more of a tendency to overpenetrate than the 1911.

[TUFF99]

I would suggest the one you are more comfortable with. I am in the army infantry and with an AR, I could dissect a BG like a surgeon from a distance and he would have no chance inside a house. That being said, I cant hit the broad side of a barn with a pistol. The difference being, that I have fired many, many thousands of rounds with a M-4/ar-15 and only a few hundred through a pistol of any kind. I pick a AR but, thats what im good with.

[kazanski612]

Did anyone see that episode of Personal Defense TV where they fired JHPs from several handgun calibers (9mm, .45ACP at least) and then JHP 55gr from an AR?

Anyone care to guess which one penetrated the LEAST? Yep, the AR. The bullet fragmented and didn't even fully penetrate the second wall. Each handgun round went through 3+ walls. (note - handgun JHPs tend to get packed with drywall, then basically become big heavy penetrating rocks)

It's opened my eyes to the AR as a HD weapon.

Having said all that, I'm still grabbing my handgun if things go bump in the night.

[jrothWA]

just remember if & when something happens.

USE what's immediately at hand.

I'd recommend that ther be distance between you and firearm, allowing to you become situationally aware, before handding something.

[leadcounsel]

I get the impression that the OP is a novice.

My vote is that NEITHER are good guns for a novice. Both the AR15 and the M1911 are *gasp* high maintenance guns. They take a lot of TLC to get them running right, and to know how to clear a malfunction.

I 100% agree with the analysis of a longgun for the *barricade* theory and a handgun for the *investigate* theory. My vote, if you are a novice, would be for a .38 or .357 revolver if you fall into the *investigate* crowd and the shotgun for the *barricade* crowd.

Me - I'm both and it's situation dependant. I have a lot of guns and STILL rely on the 12 gauge 870 as the workhorse in my home defense weaponry, but it is centered around the more maneuverable low maintenance handgun.