new brass FL resized not fitting chamber of new 270 Win rifle

k2man · February 26, 2016, 01:56 AM

I have a new Tikka T3 .270 Win Stainless bolt action rifle that I haven't yet fired. I'm starting to load some ammo, and I'm new to reloading rifle ammo.

I bought new Hornady brass and have a new Hornady Custom full length resizing die. I resized some cases using this die - setup to solidly bottom out on the shell plate.

I removed the firing pin and ejector pins from the bolt. I inserted a full length resized new brass into the ejection clip on the bolt, slid the bolt and brass into the chamber. The bolt turns freely about 1/2 of it's rotation, then stops. It requires about 5 to 10 lbs (considerable force with my thumb) to close the bolt fully. When I remove the brass, it has a scratch full diameter just into the shoulder very near the body (see photo).

I'm getting a scratch or scrape (not deep, but clearly seen) from the resizing die in the same location. This scratch is at 1.983" from the back of the case. (see photo)

My Lyman Reloading Manual shows the body/shoulder intersection to be at 1.948". This intersection on my cases is clearly longer than that - by .015 or .020" - difficult to pick where the body ends/shoulder starts, but somewhere past 1.948 but less than 1.983 (where the scratch is).

Using Hornady gauges, I measured to the ogive (.375" dia) and get .010" under the 2.052" that I believe the manual shows to be the maximum. (see photo)

I thought the full length resizing die would push the shoulder back, but my die did not.

What's going on here?

x2

condor bravo · February 26, 2016, 02:25 AM

Try chambering a new case or two that haven't been sized; they will probably chamber properly. New cases normally do not need to be sized prior to firing and it is recommended that they not be sized to begin with. It sounds like the cases were possibly elongated and if so the sizing die will have to be adjusted to set the shoulders back to normal. Or maybe the shoulder was buckled, preventing normal chambering. But probably not all that difficult to get things turned around by properly adjusting the die. With new brass it is usually desired to just run the cases over the expander to iron out the uneven necks.

After returning the problem cases to where they will chamber, and it becomes time to size the fired cases, continue by backing the die a quarter or half turn off the shell holder (but you said plate; are you using a progressive press ?) and see if the sized cases will then chamber. With the Samsung tablet that I am using, I couldn't view the .pdf file for the scratch on the case shoulders that you referred to so maybe I am missing something.

Gunplummer · February 26, 2016, 04:41 AM

I ALWAYS size my new brass. I have caught a lot of defects that way and it takes the "Dings" out of the neck. I don't want to fight with the photo downloads, so I really don't know what is going on. Sizing new brass is not the problem. Maybe the brass or die set up is. Look in the chamber with a flashlight. If the gun is the only new thing, check that first. If everything is new, check it all.

hartcreek · February 26, 2016, 05:38 AM

I aint messing with pdf files on this old laptop. If you full sized your brass and it wont chamber will a new factory round chamber? If a newfactory round chambers then use your calipers and measure the differnce between the sized case and the factory round that chambers. You may have to grind a few thousands off your full size die for it to size correctly. YOu could also have a tight chamber. I have a 1955 721 in 30-06 thats chamber is so tight I have to full size with my sizing die cranked down all the way to the sheel holder. If that had not worked I would have ground a few thousands off that die too. If you have to grind the die measure it with your calipers first and gind in even incriments so you can use a feeler gage between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. Stuff happens when these dies are churned out at factories. I have had to custom grind a few of my dies to get them to size properly.

condor bravo · February 26, 2016, 09:17 AM

I didn't want to go into that right away but do pay attention to what hartcreek is saying. Having to grind off a small portion of the sizing die to achieve proper sizing is not all that uncommon. It can easily be done if you have a small grinding wheel that can be attached to an electric drill. Using a file takes a little longer. I likewise have found it necessary to perform that little operation on several dies. The question may come up whether to grind the sizing die or the shell holder. Grind off the die; the die will not be ruined and requiring a replacement.

higgite · February 26, 2016, 09:21 AM

You don't say what press or shellholder you're using, but before I would start grinding on a die, I would try a different shellholder and reset the die to it. Just a thought.

603Country · February 26, 2016, 10:01 AM

Before I started grinding anything, I'd check to be sure I wasn't buckling the case shoulder. That's what I expect is happening. Take a new unsized case and see if it will chamber. If it did, then resize it and try again. If it won't chamber after being resized, your die is set up wrong.

F. Guffey · February 26, 2016, 10:32 AM

Quote:

I thought the full length resizing die would push the shoulder back, but my die did not.

I do not like waking up in the morning as though it was a new day and I had to start over; so I don’t start over everyday. But if I had to start over and I was a reloader with a rifle with a 270 Winchester I knew nothing about I would learn to form cases. I am neither tight nor stingy and I am not frugal; all of that allows me to take 10 270 cases and neck them up to anything larger than 270. My neck up of choice is 338/06 or 35 Whelen. I would have those dies for that purpose even if I did not have rifle with those chambers’ because I am a case former.

After sacrificing a few 270 cases I would start sizing them; I would control the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. I would start by adjusting the die down to the shell holder with the proverbial ½ turn after contact. The additional ½ turn increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. After raising the ram I would determine if the shell holder made it to the die; if the shell holder made it to the die there is absolutely no reason to turn the die an additional fraction of a turn becaus3e the shell holder can not get close to the die than contact.

After lowering the die the proverbial ½ turn I would start sizing cases by placing shims between the deck of the shell holder and case head. Adding shims between the deck of the shell holder and case head also increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. When I use RCBS shell holder I can shorten a case .012” between the shoulder and case head with shims between.

Meaning I can shorten a case .017” shorter than a go gage length chamber with shims. By changing shims I can obtain any length between full length/minimum length to +.012”. Back to starting over every day; if I do not throw the cases away I can use the cases to check the next 270.

Then there is that part about stripping the bolt; I make sure the extractor jumps the rim. Then there is that part about the bolt not closing on a case. A reloader should be able to determine ‘by how much’ in thousandths.

F. Guffey · February 26, 2016, 10:46 AM

Forgive; forgot, the shoulder on my 270 cases do not move, I know, I am not a bumper. I have bump presses, I have presses that do not bump. All of my presses that bump also cam over. My presses that do not cam over are not bump presses. I have at least 4 Rock Chucker presses, none of my Rock Chucker presses cam over. My Rock Chucker presses lock up and or go into a bind when the linkage goes into a bind. The bind causes the ram to be kicked back at the bottom and forward at the top. To check this phenomena it is required to back away from the computer and find a Rock Chucker. After locating a Rock Chucker crawl under the bench and somehow manage the handle to operate the press. A piece of carbon paper is helpful when determining the contact point on the linkage. T watch the ram kick forward at the top when the ram is raised remove the die.

F. Guffey

Hummer70 · February 26, 2016, 01:54 PM

I have had to chuck up about 1/4th of my dies and take about .005" off the bottoms but the scratch in yours is interesting, never saw this, can you see anything in that area down inside to cause such?

T. O'Heir · February 26, 2016, 02:18 PM

"...set up to solidly bottom out on the shell plate..." The shell holder should just kiss the bottom of the die with the ram all the way up.
Check the case lengths. BNIB brass should be ok for length though.
Do not grind on anything that is BNIB. Take it back. You have a warrantee.
However, before you do any of that, go buy a box of factory ammo and try it.

F. Guffey · February 26, 2016, 02:27 PM

Quote:

the scratch in yours is interesting, never saw this,

I have, problem; I do not believe I have enough ink left in my keyboard to cover all the details.

F. Guffey

k2man · February 26, 2016, 03:19 PM

Thanks all. I did forget to say, the reason I FL resized was that I was already having the exact same issue BEFORE resizing. I would have only neck sized with a Lee Collet die if they cases didn't have this issue.

I thought it may be just the batch of 50 brass - I have 5 - 50 piece boxes of the Hornady brass - so I opened two more boxes and checked four pieces of each box. Same thing - tight in the chamber, takes a 5-10# force to close the bolt all the way, leaves a scuff mark line on the cases all the way around - all in the same place - just onto the shoulder barely in front of the body/shoulder junction.

When FL resizing, I definitely am bottoming out the die onto the shell holder - I am using one of the $30 Lee presses - brand new, all tight, looks fine - a regular fitzall Lee shell holder (I called it a shell plate in an earlier post).

I'm getting no buckling or any kind of deformations of the case. I'm using Hornady One Shot along with some lanolin on the body.

I'll look at putting shims between the case and the shell holder. That sounds like the solution right now. (thanks F. Guffey)

I can grind off the die (or shell holder) if needed. I've got a lathe and a milling machine, so no problem to do it precise. Seems like grinding the shell holder (least expensive of the two) would be preferred - and it's probably not hardened like the die is?

I am attaching the cases to the bolt out of the rifle, then holding the rifle vertical, placing the case and bolt into the receiver. The brass is held against the bolt with a little slop, but I don't see the extractor having any influence here.

I do have a Dillon 550B press - I could try putting the die in it and using it with a shell plate - maybe wouldn't have to grind anything. I was trying to use the little press, but not a big deal to switch.

I just thought it was odd that the brand new brass, and then FL resized brass - that neither will fit properly in this rifle. And as I see it, this Hornady brass looks like it is a tad long to the shoulder per the Lyman Reloading Manual - I assume that is the SAMMI maximum specs shown?

603Country · February 26, 2016, 05:20 PM

Very interesting problem. I had a somewhat similar chambering problem with a new 223 barrel and reloads. I had to borrow a factory load from a neighbor to see if it would chamber. It did. I found that the chamber was extremely tight and the brass had thick neck walls, so that a reload would not chamber. That isn't your problem, but do borrow or buy a factory round and chamber it. That would tell you the chamber is at least a right size (or close). It won't help a scratching problem though.

And, my 220 Swift chamber is real tight. Reloads are snug and my FL die won't bump the shoulder back quite enough. That's my next problem to solve, that may take a little grinding.

So try a factory load.

k2man · February 27, 2016, 12:18 AM

I jammed a .014" thick utility knife blade between the shell holder and the brass. This allowed me to bump the shoulder back .011" - but I had to crank on that little Lee press.

This was going to be a major workout for my arm and that little press, so I setup my Dillon 550B. Wow, what a difference!

I did use the FL Lyman die - set it on the press and was able to adjust it down so I pushed the shoulders back to find the T3's chamber length of 2.038". I turned the die in a bit more and got 2.036" - where I want - but it is pressing down on the shell plate a little bit - only 1/16" turn down from just touching. Not deforming, but definitely some pressure.

I did 50 brass just now - the consistency on length seems to vary - I had sprayed all the cases with Hornady One Shot - if I didn't put some lanolin on them and in the case mouths, I sure knew it. It also pushed the shoulders back more when lubed with lanolin with the die set the same. Some One Shot lubed cases only pushed the shoulder back to 2.038". Some properly lubed cases measured 2.034", some 2.036"- didn't seem to want to be very consistent.

I think I'm going to grind a few thousands off the end of the die. I think I'll have better accuracy on the length that way.

F. Guffey · February 27, 2016, 12:38 AM

Quote:

but I had to crank on that little Lee press.

There is a chance your cases have more resistance to sizing than your press can overcome.

F. Guffey

PA-Joe · February 28, 2016, 07:39 AM

Most dies say screw down to the shell holder and then do another 1/4 turn. So your 1/16 turn sounds correct.

F. Guffey · February 28, 2016, 09:03 AM

Quote:

I jammed a .014" thick utility knife blade between the shell holder and the brass. This allowed me to bump the shoulder back .011" - but I had to crank on that little Lee press.

This was going to be a major workout for my arm and that little press, so I setup my Dillon 550B. Wow, what a difference!

The only shell holder that will allow me to raise the case head off of the deck of the shell holder .016” is a Lee. Again, no matter ‘the workout’ the case can win; the case can whip the press. When that happens I want to know by ‘how much’ so before lowering the ram I measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die. I the case was sized when the ram was raised and the shell holder was adjusted to or below contact with the shell holder there should be no gap. But if there is the gap represents that portion of the case that did not get pushed into the die.

And then; duties of sizing are shifted to the Dillon; nothing changed except leverage. Not a problem but the Dillon RL 550 B uses a larger ram and a 4 position shell plate. For some that complicates reloading, first be have the incline plane, now we have the cantilever. Again; If I want to know if the press won or the case won I use the companion to the press tool; the feeler gage. to determine the gap between the shell plate and bottom of the die.

Again, the deck height of the shell holder is .125”. If the case is sized when the ram is raised the case head protrusion from the die should be .125”. I can remove the case and die from most of my presses before lowering the ram. Again; it is another method and or technique I use to determine if the case won or the press won. And then there is case lube. I have case lube that allows for cases to get stuck when the going gets tuff, I have one lube that takes ‘the tuff’ out of going.

F. Guffey

February 26, 2016, 02:25 AM	#2
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Try chambering a new case or two that haven't been sized; they will probably chamber properly. New cases normally do not need to be sized prior to firing and it is recommended that they not be sized to begin with. It sounds like the cases were possibly elongated and if so the sizing die will have to be adjusted to set the shoulders back to normal. Or maybe the shoulder was buckled, preventing normal chambering. But probably not all that difficult to get things turned around by properly adjusting the die. With new brass it is usually desired to just run the cases over the expander to iron out the uneven necks. After returning the problem cases to where they will chamber, and it becomes time to size the fired cases, continue by backing the die a quarter or half turn off the shell holder (but you said plate; are you using a progressive press ?) and see if the sized cases will then chamber. With the Samsung tablet that I am using, I couldn't view the .pdf file for the scratch on the case shoulders that you referred to so maybe I am missing something. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; February 26, 2016 at 03:34 AM.

February 26, 2016, 09:17 AM	#5
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	I didn't want to go into that right away but do pay attention to what hartcreek is saying. Having to grind off a small portion of the sizing die to achieve proper sizing is not all that uncommon. It can easily be done if you have a small grinding wheel that can be attached to an electric drill. Using a file takes a little longer. I likewise have found it necessary to perform that little operation on several dies. The question may come up whether to grind the sizing die or the shell holder. Grind off the die; the die will not be ruined and requiring a replacement. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

February 26, 2016, 01:54 PM	#10
Hummer70 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 203	I have had to chuck up about 1/4th of my dies and take about .005" off the bottoms but the scratch in yours is interesting, never saw this, can you see anything in that area down inside to cause such? __________________ Distinguished Rifleman High Power & Smallbore Prone President's Hundred (Rifle) US Palma Teams(2) US Dewar Team (2),4 Man Natl.Champ Team SB Prone Cert Test Dir. Sm Arms and Ammo,Aberdeen Pr Ground, Firefighter I, AC4HT

February 26, 2016, 02:18 PM	#11
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...set up to solidly bottom out on the shell plate..." The shell holder should just kiss the bottom of the die with the ram all the way up. Check the case lengths. BNIB brass should be ok for length though. Do not grind on anything that is BNIB. Take it back. You have a warrantee. However, before you do any of that, go buy a box of factory ammo and try it. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 26, 2016, 04:41 AM	#3
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I ALWAYS size my new brass. I have caught a lot of defects that way and it takes the "Dings" out of the neck. I don't want to fight with the photo downloads, so I really don't know what is going on. Sizing new brass is not the problem. Maybe the brass or die set up is. Look in the chamber with a flashlight. If the gun is the only new thing, check that first. If everything is new, check it all.

February 26, 2016, 05:38 AM	#4
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	I aint messing with pdf files on this old laptop. If you full sized your brass and it wont chamber will a new factory round chamber? If a newfactory round chambers then use your calipers and measure the differnce between the sized case and the factory round that chambers. You may have to grind a few thousands off your full size die for it to size correctly. YOu could also have a tight chamber. I have a 1955 721 in 30-06 thats chamber is so tight I have to full size with my sizing die cranked down all the way to the sheel holder. If that had not worked I would have ground a few thousands off that die too. If you have to grind the die measure it with your calipers first and gind in even incriments so you can use a feeler gage between the bottom of the die and the shell holder. Stuff happens when these dies are churned out at factories. I have had to custom grind a few of my dies to get them to size properly.

February 26, 2016, 09:21 AM	#6
higgite Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2010 Posts: 1,025	You don't say what press or shellholder you're using, but before I would start grinding on a die, I would try a different shellholder and reset the die to it. Just a thought.

February 26, 2016, 10:01 AM	#7
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Before I started grinding anything, I'd check to be sure I wasn't buckling the case shoulder. That's what I expect is happening. Take a new unsized case and see if it will chamber. If it did, then resize it and try again. If it won't chamber after being resized, your die is set up wrong.

February 26, 2016, 10:46 AM	#9
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Forgive; forgot, the shoulder on my 270 cases do not move, I know, I am not a bumper. I have bump presses, I have presses that do not bump. All of my presses that bump also cam over. My presses that do not cam over are not bump presses. I have at least 4 Rock Chucker presses, none of my Rock Chucker presses cam over. My Rock Chucker presses lock up and or go into a bind when the linkage goes into a bind. The bind causes the ram to be kicked back at the bottom and forward at the top. To check this phenomena it is required to back away from the computer and find a Rock Chucker. After locating a Rock Chucker crawl under the bench and somehow manage the handle to operate the press. A piece of carbon paper is helpful when determining the contact point on the linkage. T watch the ram kick forward at the top when the ram is raised remove the die. F. Guffey

February 26, 2016, 03:19 PM	#13
k2man Member Join Date: June 23, 2015 Location: Key Largo, FL Posts: 54	Thanks all. I did forget to say, the reason I FL resized was that I was already having the exact same issue BEFORE resizing. I would have only neck sized with a Lee Collet die if they cases didn't have this issue. I thought it may be just the batch of 50 brass - I have 5 - 50 piece boxes of the Hornady brass - so I opened two more boxes and checked four pieces of each box. Same thing - tight in the chamber, takes a 5-10# force to close the bolt all the way, leaves a scuff mark line on the cases all the way around - all in the same place - just onto the shoulder barely in front of the body/shoulder junction. When FL resizing, I definitely am bottoming out the die onto the shell holder - I am using one of the $30 Lee presses - brand new, all tight, looks fine - a regular fitzall Lee shell holder (I called it a shell plate in an earlier post). I'm getting no buckling or any kind of deformations of the case. I'm using Hornady One Shot along with some lanolin on the body. I'll look at putting shims between the case and the shell holder. That sounds like the solution right now. (thanks F. Guffey) I can grind off the die (or shell holder) if needed. I've got a lathe and a milling machine, so no problem to do it precise. Seems like grinding the shell holder (least expensive of the two) would be preferred - and it's probably not hardened like the die is? I am attaching the cases to the bolt out of the rifle, then holding the rifle vertical, placing the case and bolt into the receiver. The brass is held against the bolt with a little slop, but I don't see the extractor having any influence here. I do have a Dillon 550B press - I could try putting the die in it and using it with a shell plate - maybe wouldn't have to grind anything. I was trying to use the little press, but not a big deal to switch. I just thought it was odd that the brand new brass, and then FL resized brass - that neither will fit properly in this rifle. And as I see it, this Hornady brass looks like it is a tad long to the shoulder per the Lyman Reloading Manual - I assume that is the SAMMI maximum specs shown?

February 26, 2016, 05:20 PM	#14
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Very interesting problem. I had a somewhat similar chambering problem with a new 223 barrel and reloads. I had to borrow a factory load from a neighbor to see if it would chamber. It did. I found that the chamber was extremely tight and the brass had thick neck walls, so that a reload would not chamber. That isn't your problem, but do borrow or buy a factory round and chamber it. That would tell you the chamber is at least a right size (or close). It won't help a scratching problem though. And, my 220 Swift chamber is real tight. Reloads are snug and my FL die won't bump the shoulder back quite enough. That's my next problem to solve, that may take a little grinding. So try a factory load.

February 27, 2016, 12:18 AM	#15
k2man Member Join Date: June 23, 2015 Location: Key Largo, FL Posts: 54	I jammed a .014" thick utility knife blade between the shell holder and the brass. This allowed me to bump the shoulder back .011" - but I had to crank on that little Lee press. This was going to be a major workout for my arm and that little press, so I setup my Dillon 550B. Wow, what a difference! I did use the FL Lyman die - set it on the press and was able to adjust it down so I pushed the shoulders back to find the T3's chamber length of 2.038". I turned the die in a bit more and got 2.036" - where I want - but it is pressing down on the shell plate a little bit - only 1/16" turn down from just touching. Not deforming, but definitely some pressure. I did 50 brass just now - the consistency on length seems to vary - I had sprayed all the cases with Hornady One Shot - if I didn't put some lanolin on them and in the case mouths, I sure knew it. It also pushed the shoulders back more when lubed with lanolin with the die set the same. Some One Shot lubed cases only pushed the shoulder back to 2.038". Some properly lubed cases measured 2.034", some 2.036"- didn't seem to want to be very consistent. I think I'm going to grind a few thousands off the end of the die. I think I'll have better accuracy on the length that way.

February 28, 2016, 07:39 AM	#17
PA-Joe Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: NEPA Posts: 909	Most dies say screw down to the shell holder and then do another 1/4 turn. So your 1/16 turn sounds correct.