New reloader with some questions

anderson79w · February 24, 2016, 04:30 AM

I am getting some 9mm 124gr JHP from Precision Delta. I have 8# of Titegroup. I have a lot of winchester small pistol primers and lots of cleaned brass. Almost have my dillon 650 set up like I think it needs to be, minus the seating depth of the bullet.

I had bought 1000 hornady 125gr HAP but after I got them I looked up load data and I can't make the Power Factor for USPSA atleast I don't think I can.

Well back on point, the whole C.O.L. thing is throwing me for a loop. I think I understand it being the distance from the powder to the bottom of the bullet, but its just using the overall lenght.

So if anyone can point me to a source that has JHP data for a 124 grain bullet that would be awesome. I have only 2 or 3 manuals at home and can't find a published load with just the JHP wording.

CZ-p09 with 4.53" barrel
124 gr JHP
Titegroup
winchester small pistol primers

thanks,
Andrew

hartcreek · February 24, 2016, 05:35 AM

I do not use Titegroup ot tell so I can not tell you how much powder to use but have COL wrong. COL is Cartridge Overall Length. SAAMI lists 1.169 inches but you do not state what you plan on shooting these loads in other then your CZ. Some brands such as Walter for example for some models require an OAL of 1.12.

You really need to load up a blank to SAAMI length and see if it works in your mags and if it will pas a plunk test in you gun.

A plunk test is when you chamber the round in your barrel to see if it fits correctly.

Someone will chime in about Titegroup. I use Unique, 231, HS6, Red dot,Green dot and Blue Dot but with 115 grain bullets most of the time.

anderson79w · February 24, 2016, 06:03 AM

Hartcreek, not sure what you mean about shooting these loads in. Its mixed headstamp brass. Thank you for pointing out SAAMI, I will have to look into that. I have so much to learn, guess I will buy that abc's of reloading after all.

dahermit · February 24, 2016, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Well back on point, the whole C.O.L. thing is throwing me for a loop. I think I understand it being the distance from the powder to the bottom of the bullet, but its just using the overall lenght.

??

anderson79w · February 24, 2016, 06:33 AM

yeah rereading that makes no sense. Sorry. I know it is the cartridge overall length, but why are they so different based on the bullet? Is the C.O.L. just a guideline that I should start out at? I would think I have to make sure the bullet would feed from magazines like hartcreek stated. I want to shoot USPSA so I do want my reloads to be somewhat accurate.

Yeah i think i will just sell this damn nightmare. can a mod delete this thread sorry for posting it in the first place.

steve4102 · February 24, 2016, 06:44 AM

This is from our Moderator Unclenick.

Start here to find Max length, then adjust OAL for property feeding, then start low and work up.

mikld · February 24, 2016, 12:16 PM

I just reloaded some 9mm yesterday with 124 JHP bullets and according to my Hornady manual, 1,060" is the OAL. I believe the "air space" in a cartridge is secondary, with proper feeding and chambering being more important and those that designed the bullets took air space into consideration. The SAAMI dimension given is max. and I believe the tolerance is 1.000"-1.169" I use that dimension (1.060") with all my 124-125 gr 9mm bullets, cast or jacketed and it works well in all 3 of my 9mms. Of course all my semi auto loads (45 ACP and 9mm) are checked with the "Plunk Test". My new Ruger LC9s-Pro is the easiest to take down so I use that barrel the most...

9x45 · February 24, 2016, 01:35 PM

From the Hodgdon website, 125 grain Hornady HAP bullet seated to 1.069" OAL and 2.8 to 3.2 grains. Your'e not even close to the minor power floor with that. I have been using TiteGroup since it first came out in the late 90's. My load for Montana Gold 125 JHPs is 4.5 grains at 1.155" OAL. My current load is Bayou 125s at 4.3 grains and 1.100" OAL, goes about 1,200 fps. Hodgdon is showing 4.4 grains for a full metal jacket at 1.090" OAL. Pistol is not the same as rifle regarding head space. You notice most factory ammo is nowhere near maximum OAL. CZs are found of short OALs anyway, and your'e not shooting Bullseye at 50 yards. USPSA is grip it and rip it with a flash sight picture. You want it to function quickly and be reliable. Give the coated bullets a try, they are accurate and much less expensive than premium jacketed bullets. Most guys only use those in Open Major 9 anyway.

TailGator · February 24, 2016, 01:35 PM

Quote:

I know it is the cartridge overall length, but why are they so different based on the bullet?

You were actually close to the answer. The same amount of the same powder will reach a higher pressure burning in a smaller space. The space behind the bullet inside the cartridge is key. If the COL is the same, a heavier bullet of the same diameter is necessarily longer, cutting down that space and raising the pressure. Similarly, a hollow point is going to be longer than a round nose because it essentially moves lead from the hollow to the back of the bullet, and the pressure is higher for the same reason.

It seems a paradox that a heavier bullet would require less powder until you think about the size of the combustion chamber and its effect on pressure.

anderson79w · February 24, 2016, 08:55 PM

Thanks, yall. Sorry for sounding so dumb. I am having a hard time putting the question I want to ask in a sentence. Thanks for understanding.

Wreck-n-Crew · February 24, 2016, 09:38 PM

Quote:

I know it is the cartridge overall length, but why are they so different based on the bullet?

Just to add to what tailgator said, just because two bullets have the same weight, doesnt mean that they have the same length before loading. If you load a longer bullet at the same OAL as a shorter bullet, it might be seated deeper depending on the bullet shape and Ogive.

anderson79w · February 24, 2016, 10:54 PM

I sent Hodgdon an email. I would like to see what they say about loading a Precision Delta 9mm, 124gr JHP using Titegroup. I hope they can point me in the right direction. Would hate to have to sell 8#'s of powder.

Also thanks Wreck, that is what I was trying to say when I was saying distance from powder to the bullet, I know that doesn't make sense to yall. But I don't have a clue how to ask questions when I barley understand it. So thanks for being understanding of me.

LE-28 · February 25, 2016, 06:32 AM

This is the data for jhps 124gr 9mm that I have. Lyman's 49th.

9x45 · February 25, 2016, 10:37 AM

OP, looks to me like you are overthinking the problem. It happens allot with new reloader's. Best thing you can do is ask the local hosers who run CZ's at your UPSPA club, they will all have their favorite recipe. You can also check the CZ forums.

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=39560.0

TimSr · February 25, 2016, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Well back on point, the whole C.O.L. thing is throwing me for a loop. I think I understand it being the distance from the powder to the bottom of the bullet, but its just using the overall lenght.

I think you have the concept right, and its just the wording that's wrong.

Seating depth is what is pressure critical, but since its difficult to accurately measure seating depth, we can know it by measuring OAL IF we know the exact bullet dimensions. This why the OAL is so different based on the bullet shape. Even round nose bullets may vary in shape from one brand to the next. Bullets of the same weight should have about the same seating depth, even though, for example, a hollow point or flat point may have a shorter OAL.

Wreck-n-Crew · February 25, 2016, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Also thanks Wreck, that is what I was trying to say when I was saying distance from powder to the bullet, I know that doesn't make sense to yall. But I don't have a clue how to ask questions when I barley understand it. So thanks for being understanding of me.

YW and don't worry you will do fine. Stay safe and let us know how those first rounds do!

9x45 · February 25, 2016, 01:37 PM

Same charge weight, 4.3 grains of TiteGroup, 4 different bullets, 4 different OALs.

Montana Gold 125 JHP at 1.165", Bayou 125 TC at 1.100", Hornady HAP 125 at 1.115" and Bear Creek moly RN at 1.060"

T. O'Heir · February 25, 2016, 02:03 PM

Data for a 124 grain JHP bullet is the same data as any jacketed 124 or 125 grain bullet. You do not need specific data for an HP. Or for a specific bullet type or brand.
Like 9x45 says, you're over thinking the whole thing. Power Factor is a game playing thing anyway.
Read these. It might help. Especially this sentence.
"Power factor requirements are determined by which division one competes in, and might be caliber specific."
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=324603
http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...ht-gives-edge/

9x45 · February 25, 2016, 02:55 PM

Since the OP is running a CZ most likely he will be shooting Production where the floor is only 125, but he still needs to get over 1,000 fps. For Level 1 matches, nobody chronos anyway, 4.0 grains is quite safe at 1.125" OAL.

anderson79w · February 26, 2016, 03:09 AM

Thanks for the input, that photo really helped me out 9x45.

This is what I got back from Hodgdon.

I would use the same data that we list for the 125 grain FMJ 4.1-4.4 grains. The nose of the bullet really does not make a difference of the charge it will make a difference on the COL which you need to adjust independently for your firearm. You look for similar bullet weight and the construction of the bullet to find your data.

Mike Van Dyke
Customer Service Representative
Hodgdon Powder Company
6430 Vista Drive
Shawnee, KS 66218

February 24, 2016, 04:30 AM	#1
anderson79w Junior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Posts: 6	New reloader with some questions I am getting some 9mm 124gr JHP from Precision Delta. I have 8# of Titegroup. I have a lot of winchester small pistol primers and lots of cleaned brass. Almost have my dillon 650 set up like I think it needs to be, minus the seating depth of the bullet. I had bought 1000 hornady 125gr HAP but after I got them I looked up load data and I can't make the Power Factor for USPSA atleast I don't think I can. Well back on point, the whole C.O.L. thing is throwing me for a loop. I think I understand it being the distance from the powder to the bottom of the bullet, but its just using the overall lenght. So if anyone can point me to a source that has JHP data for a 124 grain bullet that would be awesome. I have only 2 or 3 manuals at home and can't find a published load with just the JHP wording. CZ-p09 with 4.53" barrel 124 gr JHP Titegroup winchester small pistol primers thanks, Andrew Last edited by anderson79w; February 24, 2016 at 05:04 AM.

February 24, 2016, 12:16 PM	#7
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	I just reloaded some 9mm yesterday with 124 JHP bullets and according to my Hornady manual, 1,060" is the OAL. I believe the "air space" in a cartridge is secondary, with proper feeding and chambering being more important and those that designed the bullets took air space into consideration. The SAAMI dimension given is max. and I believe the tolerance is 1.000"-1.169" I use that dimension (1.060") with all my 124-125 gr 9mm bullets, cast or jacketed and it works well in all 3 of my 9mms. Of course all my semi auto loads (45 ACP and 9mm) are checked with the "Plunk Test". My new Ruger LC9s-Pro is the easiest to take down so I use that barrel the most... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

February 24, 2016, 01:35 PM	#8
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	From the Hodgdon website, 125 grain Hornady HAP bullet seated to 1.069" OAL and 2.8 to 3.2 grains. Your'e not even close to the minor power floor with that. I have been using TiteGroup since it first came out in the late 90's. My load for Montana Gold 125 JHPs is 4.5 grains at 1.155" OAL. My current load is Bayou 125s at 4.3 grains and 1.100" OAL, goes about 1,200 fps. Hodgdon is showing 4.4 grains for a full metal jacket at 1.090" OAL. Pistol is not the same as rifle regarding head space. You notice most factory ammo is nowhere near maximum OAL. CZs are found of short OALs anyway, and your'e not shooting Bullseye at 50 yards. USPSA is grip it and rip it with a flash sight picture. You want it to function quickly and be reliable. Give the coated bullets a try, they are accurate and much less expensive than premium jacketed bullets. Most guys only use those in Open Major 9 anyway. __________________ Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....

February 25, 2016, 10:37 AM	#14
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	OP, looks to me like you are overthinking the problem. It happens allot with new reloader's. Best thing you can do is ask the local hosers who run CZ's at your UPSPA club, they will all have their favorite recipe. You can also check the CZ forums. http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=39560.0 __________________ Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....

February 25, 2016, 01:37 PM	#17
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Same charge weight, 4.3 grains of TiteGroup, 4 different bullets, 4 different OALs. Montana Gold 125 JHP at 1.165", Bayou 125 TC at 1.100", Hornady HAP 125 at 1.115" and Bear Creek moly RN at 1.060" __________________ Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....

February 24, 2016, 05:35 AM	#2
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	I do not use Titegroup ot tell so I can not tell you how much powder to use but have COL wrong. COL is Cartridge Overall Length. SAAMI lists 1.169 inches but you do not state what you plan on shooting these loads in other then your CZ. Some brands such as Walter for example for some models require an OAL of 1.12. You really need to load up a blank to SAAMI length and see if it works in your mags and if it will pas a plunk test in you gun. A plunk test is when you chamber the round in your barrel to see if it fits correctly. Someone will chime in about Titegroup. I use Unique, 231, HS6, Red dot,Green dot and Blue Dot but with 115 grain bullets most of the time.

February 24, 2016, 06:03 AM	#3
anderson79w Junior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Posts: 6	Hartcreek, not sure what you mean about shooting these loads in. Its mixed headstamp brass. Thank you for pointing out SAAMI, I will have to look into that. I have so much to learn, guess I will buy that abc's of reloading after all.

February 24, 2016, 06:33 AM	#5
anderson79w Junior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Posts: 6	yeah rereading that makes no sense. Sorry. I know it is the cartridge overall length, but why are they so different based on the bullet? Is the C.O.L. just a guideline that I should start out at? I would think I have to make sure the bullet would feed from magazines like hartcreek stated. I want to shoot USPSA so I do want my reloads to be somewhat accurate. Yeah i think i will just sell this damn nightmare. can a mod delete this thread sorry for posting it in the first place.

February 24, 2016, 06:44 AM	#6
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	This is from our Moderator Unclenick. Start here to find Max length, then adjust OAL for property feeding, then start low and work up.

February 24, 2016, 08:55 PM	#10
anderson79w Junior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Posts: 6	Thanks, yall. Sorry for sounding so dumb. I am having a hard time putting the question I want to ask in a sentence. Thanks for understanding.

February 24, 2016, 10:54 PM	#12
anderson79w Junior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Posts: 6	I sent Hodgdon an email. I would like to see what they say about loading a Precision Delta 9mm, 124gr JHP using Titegroup. I hope they can point me in the right direction. Would hate to have to sell 8#'s of powder. Also thanks Wreck, that is what I was trying to say when I was saying distance from powder to the bullet, I know that doesn't make sense to yall. But I don't have a clue how to ask questions when I barley understand it. So thanks for being understanding of me.

February 25, 2016, 02:03 PM	#18
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Data for a 124 grain JHP bullet is the same data as any jacketed 124 or 125 grain bullet. You do not need specific data for an HP. Or for a specific bullet type or brand. Like 9x45 says, you're over thinking the whole thing. Power Factor is a game playing thing anyway. Read these. It might help. Especially this sentence. "Power factor requirements are determined by which division one competes in, and might be caliber specific." https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=324603 http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...ht-gives-edge/ __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 25, 2016, 02:55 PM	#19
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	Since the OP is running a CZ most likely he will be shooting Production where the floor is only 125, but he still needs to get over 1,000 fps. For Level 1 matches, nobody chronos anyway, 4.0 grains is quite safe at 1.125" OAL. __________________ Sometimes my Glock forgets where to look.....

February 26, 2016, 03:09 AM	#20
anderson79w Junior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Posts: 6	Thanks for the input, that photo really helped me out 9x45. This is what I got back from Hodgdon. I would use the same data that we list for the 125 grain FMJ 4.1-4.4 grains. The nose of the bullet really does not make a difference of the charge it will make a difference on the COL which you need to adjust independently for your firearm. You look for similar bullet weight and the construction of the bullet to find your data. Mike Van Dyke Customer Service Representative Hodgdon Powder Company 6430 Vista Drive Shawnee, KS 66218