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#26 | |
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Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,479
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Check out what has been done under "conspiracy" statutes. Part of the people are obsessed with the idea that if they can get rid of guns, they will get rid of violence. For them, I recommend they set up their cot in any major prison (where there are no guns except in the guards hands) and see how safe they feel. Another, and a large part of the people somehow believe that we can, or should be able to read minds, and that, somehow, we fail when we do not prevent that which we cannot see and cannot know about. We cannot see inside people's heads to know what they are thinking. The most we can possibly do is based on what those people show us, and what they say, and guess what folks, people LIE!!! There was a case not all that long ago, cops were called, and did a "wellness check" (mental health check) and found the individual sane, stable, rational, polite and apparently just fine. They left, no doubt feelng the guy was ok and not a threat. THE NEXT DAY (or possibly the day after that, I forget...) that guy shot several people, stabbed several other and drove his car over some more people. And the reason he gave was his frustration/depression over not being able to find a girlfriend... ![]() The mind of man is as trackless as a bog at midnight, and thinking we can see where a person's path is leading, correctly and without fail, is just delusional thinking. Yet this is what some are demanding, and its what we are told is being offered with various gun control laws.
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#27 | ||
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Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 6,823
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Background checks...There are databases the NICS check is trying to check. States compliance was awful the last time I checked. Basically, what your name is being checked against is a hollow database. Maybe states should be forced to comply or lose something?? Quote:
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#28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 1,187
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One thing the continually crops up with these mass shooters is a history of mental illness, and yet there is never a discussion about how we address what is, to me at least, clearly a crisis in mental health care.
I saw a heart breaking local news coverage in Cincinnati some years ago where a clearly affluent woman had been begging for help with her child. On camera, she said he is violent and she had no doubt that he was going to end up murdering someone and she could not get anything done about it. There are people that are clearly violent and have no place in society, but they are simply left to try to find their way in society until they eventually succumb to their impulses. |
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#29 | |
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Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,479
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Now, here's the rub, you cannot (and probably should not) lock someone up, or burn them for being a witch without PROOF and that proof only exists AFTER they have done something bad or really, really bad. IF/when we fail to follow that basic rule, the one that says innocent until proven guilty, then we fall to the level of the middle ages witch hunts, Nazis and Communists "disappearing" people based on their neighbors rumors, or McCarthyism hunting suspected communist agents (and in the wrong places) based on unfounded accusations. There are established legal steps for getting people legally declared dangerous, unfit, not competent, etc. IF an individual does not meet those standards, the govt cannot, should not, and does not lock them up. They have the same rights as the rest of us. ALL our rights. The downside to the system is that someone who does not meet the requirements to be committed TODAY can and sometimes does go out and commit evil, tommorrow. OR next week or a year from now... And to further complicat matters, what is the "dangerous" mental attitude??? Standards have changed over time, and possibly might change again. "Mental illness" is a brush as broad as a continent, and with as many variations. There are still people alive who remember when actual medical textbooks listed homosexuality as a mental illness. Back then, "everybody" (except homosexuals) "knew" that was right and the correct thing. Today, most people think differently. What are we going to think, tomorrow???
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#30 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 20, 2009
Location: Overlooking the Baker River Valley
Posts: 1,731
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Quote:
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#31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,249
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Food for thought- When police arrest an offender, the firearms offense is typically one of the first ones to be plea bargained away by the prosecutors because any defense attorney wants to get rid of it to show he is doing his job, and the offender is very eager to get potential penalties off the table. Prosecutors want to keep people out of prison becasue prisons are crowded. Everybody's happy, right? Except that it defeats the point of stricter laws since they will never be enforced anyway.
And about those 30,000 death annually- closer to 40,000, but 2/3 of them are suicides, and 25% of them are gang related. If you really want to see a big impact on gun deaths, address those two areas. Trump was trying to go after gangs, but you still need to address the suicides.
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#32 | |
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Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,479
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Quote:
Not looking to start an argument over the morality of suicide, just wondering why/how would gun control laws be of any use.
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#33 | |||
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Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,149
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I will have to admit that I am a bit concerned that mentioning or even thinking about something improper might soon lead to a criminal charge in this woke society in which we now live. |
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#34 | |
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Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 19,049
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#35 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,249
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Quote:
By addressing the suicides I meant that someone has to take them out of the total firearms deaths talking points. And not so much the suicides themselves, but why they are being addressed as "gun deaths" when in that case the fact that there was a firearm involved was simply timing or convenience. If you are trying to look at gun homicides (gangs or police or private citizens killing someone), then leave out the people whoo killed themselves. But it's a big number, so anti-gunners want it in there for shock value. I think in analyzing things like cause and effect, the Pareto principle is a valuable tool. It separates a lot of the garbage and lets you see what's going on in all that mess.
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#36 |
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Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 19,049
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Scorch has a valid point, but the fact remains that a death by firearm is a death by firearm. However, the raw statistic doesn't address the fact that people who want to commit suicide WILL find a way, and guns are only one of the tools available to them.
I had a friend and co-worker who committed suicide many years ago by parking his pickup truck across an Amtrak main line, in a cut with a blind curve where the engineer could not possibly have seen the truck in time to slow the train. My ex mother-in-law tried by turning on the gas oven but not lighting it. My adopted daughter went off the deep end when her grandmother died. She has made six attempts that I know of. Five were drug overdoses; the sixth was trying to jump out a sixth story window. Other people drive their cars off cliffs or into bridge abutments. Guns don't cause suicides.
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#37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 1,187
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Geez AB, I'm sorry about all of that. That is awful.
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#38 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,479
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Quote:
Some time back, there was a gun control group calling themselves "Handgun Control Inc." (they call themselves something else today) published some alarming statistics about "death of a child due to a handgun". After a while, a "defector" within their group released the details of how they got the number. First, everyone under the age of 25 was counted as a "child". Next, they counted all deaths, no matter the weapon, as due to a handgun. Then they counted accidents, suicides, criminal acts, including gang on gang shootings, and also included all those shot by the police in the course of their duty. They added all those up and presented the number to the public with a false and grossly misleading title. And, even after their methodology was debunked, they kept on using the figure and so did the mainstream media. Seems those people are still doing something quite similar today.
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#39 |
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Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,249
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Yes, Handgun Control, Inc became the Brady Foundation, IIRC, after Jim Brady was paraded around in a wheelchair after being shot by John Hinckley during the Reagan assasination attempt in 1981. And yes, their numbers were grossly inflated and their definition of a "child" included adults. But the number is big and shocking and very emotionally charged since it includes "children" (some of whom were involved in criminal activities and were shot by authorities). But it's their story, and they're stickin to it.
It's kind of like the "mass shootings" numbers bandied about. Since there is no agreed-upon definition, any time there are 3 or more "victims", it can considered a mass shooting, whether the "victims" are harmed or not. E.g., firing a handgun at someone where at least 4 people present (including the shooter) and 3 are "victims" of assault with a deadly weapon could be a "mass shooting" whether or not the "victims" were struck by a bullet or not. I know, to me that's not a "mass shooting". The definition the AG came up with is 3 or more people injured in one incident.
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#40 |
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Join Date: August 28, 2012
Location: In AZ, Where Free Men Live
Posts: 51
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If memory serves, the wording regarding drugs on the 4473 is "addicted." How many get addicted to marijuana?
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#41 | ||
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Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 19,049
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Quote:
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#42 |
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Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 30,479
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Also be clear, that is "unlawful user" by the Federal definition, NOT your state's.
If you're in one of the states that has legalized pot, then the state considers the user to be legal but the Feds, DO NOT....
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#43 |
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Join Date: February 8, 2021
Location: Bullhead Chity, AZ.
Posts: 75
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Yes, under federal law you must have the tax stamp to be legal, a tax stamp the feds have not made available for many, many years.
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