Witness Match Elite Small Frame?

[Martowski]

Hey everyone,

Does anyone know if there are any small frame 9mm EAA Witness Match Elites floating around out there? I found an older Match made around 2005, but it still has the large frame (just got off the phone with EAA to verify). The lady on the phone said almost all of the Matches are large frame and they may have made some small frame versions a long time ago, but they are almost all larges.

Anyone?

[WESHOOT2]

Not that I am aware of (and my pair of 'smalls' date from the mid-nineties).

[Martowski]

Thanks.

[Ruger480]

http://www.impactguns.com/product.aspx?zpid=33118

Is this what you're looking for?

[Martowski]

Thanks. That is an Elite Match, but appears to be a large frame. I believe EAA stopped importing the small frame Tanfoglios in 2005.

[Peter M. Eick]

Find a Springfield P9 Ultra or Ultra IPSC. They are essentially match short frames. When I compare the trigger pull (in single action) of my P9 Ultra IPSC and my Match Elite, they are identical with the crispness going to my Ultra IPSC.

Remember thought the Ultra IPSC is a DA/SA trigger and hammer if that matters.

It is a short frame though. Mine is a 40 and I have put about 10,000 rounds down it now. Great gun and fun to shoot.

[Martowski]

Thanks for the tip on the P9 Ultra; I didn't know such a model existed. I'll keep my eyes peeled!

[g.willikers]

Or you can get the genuine article, the CZ.

[Martowski]

Yeah, I had the "genuine article" but, while it was a fine pistol and nothing was wrong with it, I actually prefer the feel of the Tanfoglio models more. I just (as in today) won a TZ-75 (probably about 25 years old). I just sold my CZ-75b a couple months ago.

[Peter M. Eick]

Don't get me started on CZ's. The 97b above is one of the few guns I have had catastrophically fail. I say few when really it is the one and only! Poor design and materials compared to the P9.

By the way, P9 Ultra's (that family of guns) were made in the Springfield shop under Les Baer's oversight who went on to do some really fine work somewhere else. If you are not up to date on him, do a search on his name.

I should point out those are two different Ultra's. My Favorite is the Glossy one which is a long slide ported.

[Martowski]

Very nice... thanks for sharing. And yes, I'm very familiar with Les Baer's work.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Peter M. Eick

Don't get me started on CZ's. The 97b above is one of the few guns I have had catastrophically fail. I say few when really it is the one and only! Poor design and materials compared to the P9.

I'm curious: what specific materials and design features would you call poor?

You've mentioned this before and yours is the only example I've ever heard of a CZ-97 failing. (Not to say there aren't more -- but it certainly isn't typical or common.)

As far as I know, all of the Tanfoglio-made guns came out of the same factories, were made from essentially the same materials, and based on one basic design -- with tweaks for special applications. (The design changed, subtly over time, and there were differences, to be sure, between models and calibers.) That general statement includes the P9 line AND the Ultras...

That said, there are MANY examples of FAILED Tanfoglio-made .45s and 10mm models to be found, some right here on this forum. This was mostly bad slides, but also a few instances of frame problems. My .45 (a Witness Sport Long Slide) had a barrel that cracked near the chamber, shooting modest factory loads.

Originally Posted by Peter M. Eick

By the way, P9 Ultra's (that family of guns) were made in the Springfield shop under Les Baer's oversight who went on to do some really fine work somewhere else. If you are not up to date on him, do a search on his name.

It's probably more correct to say the P9 Ultras were assembled and fine-tuned in the Springfield shop, under Les Baer's ovrsight, but as far as I know, the components were all made in Italy by Tanfoglio and weren't greatly different than those made for other Tanfoglio guns. The real difference was in assembly and tuning, and the P9 Ultras were, in effect, semi-custom guns.

[chris in va]

If it was yours that had the lug break off, it's the only one I've ever heard this happening to. Interesting you keep repeating this on every post as if every 97b is flawed in this manner.

That being said I did have a failure on my 97b last month. The barrel bushing sheared off a day before a match. Fortunately David at CGW had a few spares but he did say this is a common weak point in the design. At some point I'll have him do the 1911 bushing mod.

[WESHOOT2]

I don't have a CZ; I have three Witnesses.
My earliest has the frame reduction at front as seen in some of the pics posted here, but the one I bought right after the first does not.
Nothing has broken on any of my Tanfoglio-based CZ clones (no matter how hard I try ).

[Peter M. Eick]

[Peter M. Eick]

You can only have 7 pictures per post.

As much as some folks say I am the only one, I have had a small number of folks email or PM me over the years saying "me to". The problem is the lug design is small and this part batters (or can batter) or may be "brittle" and it breaks and you are SOL.

This happened with 230 grn PMC ammo. Yes CZ fixed it but I totally lost faith in the gun. Now if you compare the lug to the EAA, notice they are kidney shaped like the P210's and so this is less likely to happen. I view this as a unique design flaw to the 97b since none of my EAA's has it that I can remember.

I admit that I probably hold a dislike of all CZ's because of this instance but in the end I have the pictures so I will continue to beat the bandwagon of "its a design flaw" and move on.

Regarding the more correct summary that Baer finishes the gun. You are probably more accurate. I talked to Mr Baer at the Houston NRA gunshow a few years back and he said they did a lot of finish work on the guns and truly fit and finished the Ultra's. That is why my favorite is the nicely polished ones and he implied (or maybe he said for sure I don't remember) that the polished ones are definitely hand fit and finished while the more parkerized ones are just fit and tested.

Finally regarding Weshoot's comments. I agree. I have yet to break an EAA. I have cracked some 10 round mags, but that is a legal caused issue, not EAA's fault. I have put ammo in my 10mm witness that I have no right to walk around talking about and it worked fine and still does today. I was lucky with my EAA's and I was unlikely with CZ's so I will sing the praises of EAA and point out the flaws in the 97b (although I am getting bored with it slowly).

[Walt Sherrill]

Nobody questions the fact of the failure you describe and show, only your characterization of it. You've drawn a conclusion about the nature of the failure, but that remains unproven/untested.

The photos you've shared might also indicate improper or incomplete heat treatment. Or a batch of bad barrels because of something done during production/manufacture. The fact that edges of the metal show the most obvious signs of damage makes me think that the heat treatment was part of the issue. (Heat treatment is generlly a "surface" treatment that only hardens the outside of the metal.) Perhaps the other guns that made up that "very small number" you mention were a part of the same production batch? Stuff does happen.

The photo below is the barrel from my Witness Sport Long Slide in .45. I was shooting factory 230 gr. ammo. I don't remember exactly, but it was probably Blazer hardball. At the time, the Sport Long Slide was one of Tanfoglio's top-line guns (but not one of their IPSC/race guns.)

Except for the fact that the last shot didn't sound right, the gun seemed ready to go. There was a small mess in the chamber, just like I've seen with squib loads, so I checked the barrel in the gun to be sure it was clear; it wasn't blocked, and there was no obvious damage. I started to load another mag, but for some reason I decided to field strip it. When I did, I found what can be seen in the photo, below; I almost had to change my pants.

Using your reasoning would I be correct to call this a failure due to poor design or crappy materials? I've never seen this sort of problem with a CZ.

[Peter M. Eick]

I won't disagree with your analysis of my views on the problems. I drew a conclusion based upon one experience in first person and others comment of similar problems.

Yes I would accept that an alternative solution is a bad batch of barrels/heat treats that caused the problem. I would also postulate that this is an engineering flaw in the basic design because it would not "fail safe". For example, had CZ used the EAA (Tanfolgio) approach of the kidney shaped link, and the same surmised heat treatment failure occured, it would only have cracked the link and hopefully, the rear of the piece would have held. I would have eventually found the problem when cleaning the gun, but it would have locked up the gun with a live round in the chamber.

So two different takes on the same evidence. Either could be correct or possibly neither is. I will tend to stand by my version of the events since I was there and dealt with it, but I can accept your solution as plausible also.

Regarding your failure. I find that one interesting and your question well posed. If I argue it is a design flaw in that the barrel is too thin, I really don't have any evidence of it. I would be arguing more an esoteric point on principals. If I argue it is poor materials and execution, I would be basing it on the way the metal cracked along the sharp edge of the link down surface of the barrel which is probably a stressed region and may have had a stress riser.

If I argue an alternative that the prior shot to your presumed squib was overpressured and actually caused the failure, I think we might be closer to the truth. I envision (with no facts so I guess this is fantasy) that the prior shot to the squib round had some flaw in it to cause it to go overpressure. Too much powder, bullet stopped in the barrel, just bad karma and the barrel cracked and partially burst. The squib round you fired next was actually fired like normal, but at the peak moment of pressure the case partially failed and the barrel expanded thus shutting down the burn of the powder and luckily pushing the bullet out the barrel.

So with no facts to support my case (since I was not there and have not studied the barrel or gun in question), I would argue bad ammo lead to the failure of the superiority designed EAA (notice the nice solid kidney shaped link down lug) over the CZ failure in my case.

Had the same overpressure occurred in my CZI would have expected a similar break to mine but I was using a brass catcher that I had emptied the magazine prior to the event and I have the brass that caused the problem. It showed no sign of overpressure or other failures although we all know that would only work in cases of gross overpressure, otherwise it would be inconclusive.

[Walt Sherrill]

There was no squib round. I said there seemed to be some excess materials in the chamber as is sometimes seen with a squib round. The barrel was clear. There was no squib.

I don't think you can assume that the failure was from overpressure, although it could have been. Overpressure is generally felt, particularly when it causes a failure. I felt nothing unusual.

Most squibs are caused by a lack of enough pressure to propel the round out of the barrel. Problems arise with the next shot -- if the squib isn't noticed and the barrel is blocked. There was no blockage, there was no squib. There was no FELT difference in the round when it was fired.

Your assumption about the Tanfoglio's barrel lug design not failing in a catastrophic manner if similarly mistreated during manufacture is conjecture.

The SUPERSIGHT on the Sport Long Slide also failed, and that was an EXPENSIVE part to replace ($120 at the time). Because of it's unique design and special slide and dovetail cut, there weren't any aftermarket alternatives. I bought the gun used so I had to pay for both the sight and the barrel. That's the only time I've had two such severe failures with any gun but I didn't let it scare me away from other Tanfoglio handguns.

I don't know what caused the problems. I certainly don't know enough to claim that the problem was caused by inferior design or generally inferior materials. I repaired the gun and shot it for another year or two, and then traded it away.

Rumor has it that CZ is now working on a 10mm handgun; if that is more than rumor, it'll be interesting to see what barrel lug design they use...

[Peter M. Eick]

I probably phrased that poorly. The round that was fired when the barrel opened up "acted" like a squib round but kicked the bullet out. You said it has stuff left in the chamber indicating incomplete burn of the powder.

I won't disagree with your comment that overpressure is generally felt, but I have seen pushed cases which were overpressure but they felt no different. The difference between the two is a fine line sometimes.

Interesting about the gun being used. Maybe the prior owner did something odd that stressed things? Just speculating.

I will be interested in what CZ does with the 10mm. It will be interesting from an engineering perspective. The 97b would have been a reasonable sized gun for a 10mm if you could get the engineering right.

So you want to table this one? I don't think either one of us will ever know what happened in each of our cases. We have our suspicions and speculations but that is about it. You and I have known of each other for years, and I have a lot of respect for your analysis and opinions. I can see your case and logic and it is reasonable. I still am not sure your analysis is any better than mine but let me think about it.

[Walt Sherrill]

Let's table it.

An interesting diversion: For a period of about a year, I had the Witness Sport Long Slide, a CZ-97B, and an ASAI ONE PRO -- they all could use the same magazines. (All three came with Mec-Gar mags from the factory.)

I think the ASAI ONE PRO (a Tanfoglio-based gun built in Solothurn, Switzerland) was the best of the three. (I think the same folks built it that built the early CZs.) Mine was very accurate and well made. (Magnum Research was the importer.)

The problem for me was that the ONE PRO had a very light factory trigger, and a phenomenally smooth double-action, and it was too easy (for me) to do double-taps when I didn't mean to. The gun scared me, and I later sold it.

I now realize that was a stupid thing to do, and all I really had to do was install a heavier hammer spring. Hindsight is always 20/20... If I ever run into another in good shape, I will grab it. I think they were probably made with the same level of fit and finish as the better P9 models. If you haven't encountered or owned one, keep an eye out: I know you like finer handguns -- and you might be impressed.

I have a SIG P220 Super Match right now, and it's very accurate and quite attractive, but I can shoot my Glock 38 just as well, and the Glock is actually easier to use in an IDPA match. The controls on some of the SA SIGs just aren't as easy to use as they should be. That Glock (.45 GAP) is the gun I keep in a small, bedside safe, in case anything ever goes bump in the night.

About the prior owner of the Sport Long Slide: an older fellow who was suffering from severe arthritis in his hands. We traded guns. (I said I bought it, but that was to simplify the discussion.) I gave him a very nice stainless Ruger long-barreled, slab-sided Target Competition in stainless, with some enhancements for his Witness; he was happy because .22s didn't cause him pain. I was happy because I wanted a Long Slide .45.

The gun I received seemed to be very low mileage, and because of his affliction, I doubt he was shooting hot loads. The damaged barrel may simply have been one that was badly made. I've had a bunch of Witnesses over the years, never had problems with any of the others. The rear sight? Your guess is as good as mine.

.

[Clipper]

Heat treatment is generlly a "surface" treatment that only hardens the outside of the metal.

First of all an incomplete heat treat would not equal breakage - quite the contrary! Softer steel will BEND not break. Harder steels usually break easier than softer steels, it all depends on the ingredients in the steel. Think throwing knives, usually those have a low rockwell hardness.. they're kept softer to avoid breakage (they don't hold an edge but they're tough). That barrel lug snapped off most likely from being made brittle that resulted from being heated too long. If it was zone (surface) tempered, the core would've been softer and prevented the fracture.

[Walt Sherrill]

First of all a poorly done heat treat would not equal breakage - quite the contrary!

Depends on what you men by "poorly done." A roast that is poorly cooked doesn't tell us whether it was over- or under-cooked.

My original statement in message #17 was "The photos you've shared might also indicate improper or incomplete heat treatment." (I was looking at the photos of the breakage, and didn't really think about too much or too little, just the possibility that it wasn't done right.)

I think there were a bunch of Springfield-made military rifles made for WWI that fell into that category: they had brittle receivers. When I was interested in C&R weapons some years ago, that was a common warning seen on many C&R site -- with links to websites with the serial number ranges.

[WESHOOT2]

I have personally handled Witnesses with broken slides, frames, and barrels (but that was long before Major Nine was understood by most folks loading it at the time ).

I shoot one small frame in 9x19, 9x21, 40 S&W, and 41 AE. Like a Timex.....