Update on "New Wildcat" performance. Deep seated lead cast bullet in 38 spl case. - Page 2

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 4, 2017, 02:32 PM

Thanks for sharing Jim Watson.

I did not know that.

Plastik Glock 9mm is cycling reliably with:

124 grain lead Truncated Cone and 3.1 grain of an given powder (Saga).

115 grain FMJ Winchester RN bullets and 4.4 grain of an given powder (Saga).

for both same brand of powder. Both are Minimum Points of reliable cycling.

**Unclenick** · February 4, 2017, 05:34 PM

400 ft-lbs is a military load. A lot of the commercial loads are not that high.

500 ft-lbs is very possible in the .357, but you'll have to seat the bullet out further so you can use more powder. Right now the bullet is only having to move a very short distance forward to double the volume the powder is burning in. This means the pressure drops pretty rapidly as it goes forward after the pressure peak, whereas a normally seated bullet with the powder charge adjusted to get to the same peak pressure, will lose pressure more gradually as the bullet goes further down the barrel because the larger powder charge has made a greater quantity of gas. This gives the bullet more acceleration beyond the peak pressure than you are getting now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGuyOfSouthAmerica

Believe me: those 148 grain WC are sitting firmly.

Yes, but how consistent is the hold from one bullet to the next? Are the cases truly identically thick? That's what could account for velocity variation. Uneven bullet holding strength.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 4, 2017, 06:09 PM

Yes Sir.

Only my Goal was and is to use as Little powder as possible.
Obviously if I put in more powder I will have higher velocities.

I got already my Lee Tumble Lube 148 grain Wadcutter mold and today made a few. I loaded one round and chronoed it but it was to dark already and the Chrono gave me an error.

Tomorrow I will start a thread of:

Chronograph Data: Elmer Keith style vs Lee Tumble Luber 148 grain Wadcutter velocity.

See if the lube grooves make really a difference in velocity as Lee Precision Claims.
I have a Feeling it does.
Since as I loaded one round I found them going in very Slick into the case as much as there is way less resistance while seating and "crimping" the tumble Lube design.
Those may have a Problem in seating loose; which those Elmer Keith style do not (they seat quiete with force).

Maybe the trick is Lee Precision undersizes a bit "their design" at least as that it feels. But maybe the tumble lube design surfaces is really way more Slick.

**Unclenick** · February 5, 2017, 12:27 PM

Ahhh! You may be laboring under a false assumption. Peak pressure does not determine the amount of energy in the bullet. That is determined by average pressure applied to the bullet during its travel down through the bore. So, if you have, say 30,000 psi at the peak, but the muzzle has only 5,000 psi, then the average is 17,500 psi. If you have a peak of 20,000 psi and the muzzle pressure is 15,000 psi, then the average is also 17,500 psi, so the bullet will have the same velocity and energy.

The reason you get more velocity from your powder by deep seating is it raises the expansion ratio, enabling the powder to be used more efficiently. Below is a plot made from data calculated in QuickLOAD. It shows the theoretical relationship between seating depth and pressure and velocity and energy. Note how much more rapidly peak pressure rises for a fixed charge than velocity or energy do as you seat the bullet deeper. Norma's manual also warns about this. However, if you are not getting the listed velocity you are not getting the theoretical pressure. This may be due to the gas bypass I described as well as the fact the barrel-cylinder gap leaks a higher percentage of the gas at a higher pressure. QuickLOAD treats the barrel as if it were a rifle barrel and has no gas bypass leakage allowance and no barrel/cylinder gap allowance in its model.

John C · February 6, 2017, 12:29 AM

Unclenick;

I agree completely. The energy of the bullet is the area under the curve of the pressure vs time graph.

TGOSA;

Your issue is that you're using very fast powder. Typically 12 ga target or field loads use fast pistol powder, like Red Dot or 700x. This spike the pressure up fast, in order to burn correctly. But the total area under the pressure vs time curve is low.

You need a much slower powder. Typically, mid range powders similar to unique are found in 20 ga shells, and slow magnum powder is found is .410 shells.

Using fast pistol/shotgun powder will only get you the results you're seeing. The pressure would spike too much if you just load in more powder. While it possible (as you've seen) to load fast powders like Red Dot in 9mm or .357, you don't get full powder loads.

rock185 · February 6, 2017, 02:19 AM

The guy of SA, I'd agree your powder must be something similar to Red Dot in burn rate. A relatively fast powder. If highest muzzle energy with a fast powder is what you are looking for, a lighter bullet is the way to go. If you had access to slower powders, you could safely push your 148 grain wadcutters to much higher velocities without flattened primers or sticky extraction. We're all Rootin' for you in any case

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 6, 2017, 10:34 AM

According to the Spanish 12 ga shotshell manufacturer the powder used is following:

Maxam CSB 1P
Which is similar to their metallic CSB 1M
http://www.maxamcomponents.com/en/ou...rs/csb_powders
This powder I have used with my Chronograph tests till now.

That may be somewhat similar to Unique.

The other Spanish brand uses equel to VV N330 powder in their 12 ga shotshells.

I have to trade off powder for lead. Since powder is scarce and lead is plenty and cheap its an trade off.
If more lead (heavier bullets) let me save some powder and I get equal or even more energy from that set up that system is more efficient and economical.
Scavenging 20 ga or even 410 ga shells is not an option due to very high prices. They even jacked up lately 12 ga ammo prices.

John C · February 21, 2017, 03:10 AM

Just out of curiosity, how much powder are in the 20 ga shells you can get locally? Looking in my load manual, it's likely 17 to 24 grains of powder.

TheGuyOfSouthamerica · February 21, 2017, 03:16 AM

I dun'no.
They are to expensive to use.

One brand 12 ga has 22 grain, another has 25 grain and another brand has 28 grain.

These will have the same as the brands you have in the US. Most brands from here are from Spain like Rio. Just one brand is from Argentina.

12 ga I not even dare anymire to shoot because of cost. I rather use those shells to reload my revolver or 9mm Luger. One 12 ga shell gives me 6 rounds of eigther if I use 3.8 grains of powder which translates to 991 fps with an 148 grain Wadcutter and 322 ft/lbs energy.

If i shoot shotgun its the 20 ga.

February 4, 2017, 02:32 PM	#26
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	Thanks for sharing Jim Watson. I did not know that. Plastik Glock 9mm is cycling reliably with: 124 grain lead Truncated Cone and 3.1 grain of an given powder (Saga). 115 grain FMJ Winchester RN bullets and 4.4 grain of an given powder (Saga). for both same brand of powder. Both are Minimum Points of reliable cycling. Last edited by TheGuyOfSouthamerica; February 4, 2017 at 02:40 PM.

February 6, 2017, 02:19 AM	#31
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,093	The guy of SA, I'd agree your powder must be something similar to Red Dot in burn rate. A relatively fast powder. If highest muzzle energy with a fast powder is what you are looking for, a lighter bullet is the way to go. If you had access to slower powders, you could safely push your 148 grain wadcutters to much higher velocities without flattened primers or sticky extraction. We're all Rootin' for you in any case __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

February 6, 2017, 10:34 AM	#32
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	According to the Spanish 12 ga shotshell manufacturer the powder used is following: Maxam CSB 1P Which is similar to their metallic CSB 1M http://www.maxamcomponents.com/en/ou...rs/csb_powders This powder I have used with my Chronograph tests till now. That may be somewhat similar to Unique. The other Spanish brand uses equel to VV N330 powder in their 12 ga shotshells. I have to trade off powder for lead. Since powder is scarce and lead is plenty and cheap its an trade off. If more lead (heavier bullets) let me save some powder and I get equal or even more energy from that set up that system is more efficient and economical. Scavenging 20 ga or even 410 ga shells is not an option due to very high prices. They even jacked up lately 12 ga ammo prices. Last edited by TheGuyOfSouthamerica; February 6, 2017 at 10:41 AM.

February 4, 2017, 06:09 PM	#28
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	Yes Sir. Only my Goal was and is to use as Little powder as possible. Obviously if I put in more powder I will have higher velocities. I got already my Lee Tumble Lube 148 grain Wadcutter mold and today made a few. I loaded one round and chronoed it but it was to dark already and the Chrono gave me an error. Tomorrow I will start a thread of: Chronograph Data: Elmer Keith style vs Lee Tumble Luber 148 grain Wadcutter velocity. See if the lube grooves make really a difference in velocity as Lee Precision Claims. I have a Feeling it does. Since as I loaded one round I found them going in very Slick into the case as much as there is way less resistance while seating and "crimping" the tumble Lube design. Those may have a Problem in seating loose; which those Elmer Keith style do not (they seat quiete with force). Maybe the trick is Lee Precision undersizes a bit "their design" at least as that it feels. But maybe the tumble lube design surfaces is really way more Slick.

February 6, 2017, 12:29 AM	#30
John C Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Posts: 127	Unclenick; I agree completely. The energy of the bullet is the area under the curve of the pressure vs time graph. TGOSA; Your issue is that you're using very fast powder. Typically 12 ga target or field loads use fast pistol powder, like Red Dot or 700x. This spike the pressure up fast, in order to burn correctly. But the total area under the pressure vs time curve is low. You need a much slower powder. Typically, mid range powders similar to unique are found in 20 ga shells, and slow magnum powder is found is .410 shells. Using fast pistol/shotgun powder will only get you the results you're seeing. The pressure would spike too much if you just load in more powder. While it possible (as you've seen) to load fast powders like Red Dot in 9mm or .357, you don't get full powder loads.

February 21, 2017, 03:10 AM	#33
John C Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Posts: 127	Just out of curiosity, how much powder are in the 20 ga shells you can get locally? Looking in my load manual, it's likely 17 to 24 grains of powder.

February 21, 2017, 03:16 AM	#34
TheGuyOfSouthamerica Junior member Join Date: September 10, 2016 Posts: 846	I dun'no. They are to expensive to use. One brand 12 ga has 22 grain, another has 25 grain and another brand has 28 grain. These will have the same as the brands you have in the US. Most brands from here are from Spain like Rio. Just one brand is from Argentina. 12 ga I not even dare anymire to shoot because of cost. I rather use those shells to reload my revolver or 9mm Luger. One 12 ga shell gives me 6 rounds of eigther if I use 3.8 grains of powder which translates to 991 fps with an 148 grain Wadcutter and 322 ft/lbs energy. If i shoot shotgun its the 20 ga.