Fire Forming Same Cartridge Brass

[Yosemite Steve]

This discussion has begun on a separate unrelated thread, but I feel like this deserves it's own thread as there is much knowledge for all to gain here.

Without reliving all the history I will just get to the problem. I have 30-06 cases that were sized too sort by methods unorthodox and hasty. The brass is Nosler that has been fired twice and needs to be fire formed to bring the shoulder forward .017". There are some that say it's too dangerous and some that say go ahead and fire form it. Then there is me who will get stuck in analysis paralysis with my OCD and lack of real experience on the subject but with a viral curiosity.

There are several things I am considering.

I could use some cheap bullets seated to the lands and a starting load but...will my extractor pin on my Savage 110 still push the bullet forward into the rifling a bit creating a gap at the case head? I will be conducting an experiment to see if it does and by how much this morning.

I could use the COW method which will use no bullets but will also require some experimentation to find the correct powder charge to fully inflate the brass.

I could do it the Slamfire way and lube the bullets up so that they slide back as they are fired preventing case head stretching.

I cannot decide on a way.

How would you do it?

[StripesDude]

I had some 308 that was too short - about 0.02”. I tried all kinds of things - all resulted in separation. It just isn’t worth the risk - I chucked the cases in the trash.

[F. Guffey]

This discussion has begun on a separate unrelated thread, but I feel like this deserves it's own thread as there is much knowledge for all to gain here.

I do not agree, I do not believe it is necessary to reinvent case forming, I form first and then fire, when I eject a fired case I call it a once fired case, reloaders use the term 'fire form'.

You can greased your bullets, I do not want anything between the case and chamber but air, I am a case former and have no infatuation with greasing my bullets. I have a pile of streaker bullets, I do not shoot them because cleaning the barrel after the streaks are left in the barrel takes a special formula.

F. Guffey

[Yosemite Steve]

I had some 308 that was too short - about 0.02”. I tried all kinds of things - all resulted in separation. It just isn’t worth the risk - I chucked the cases in the trash.

What were the all kinds of things you tried?

[F. Guffey]

I had some 308 that was too short - about 0.02”. I tried all kinds of things - all resulted in separation. It just isn’t worth the risk - I chucked the cases in the trash.

A builder of bench rest type rifles called to inform me he had a new owner of one of his rifles that was complaining about the fit of the case in the chamber. I asked about the accuracy; there was nothing suspect about the accuracy. And! if he could fix the problem or knew what the problem was he would not have called me.
First I had to determine if it could be done, after that I took my dies to his shop and started digging, We went through thousands of cases and then settled on LC Match 30/06 pull down cases, I formed his 308 W cases from 30/06 cases, I did not ream and or turn the necks, it seemed the new owner wanted a tight neck because he read on the internet it was not possible to have accuracy without a tight neck.

He is the smith that will not allow me to use my 'no name' lube he insist we use Imperial and or Dillon, you will not believe how difficult it is to make that stuff look good.

F. Guffey

[Dufus]

You know my thoughts and actions on the subject, so I will not repeat them again.

[mikld]

Originally Posted by Dufus

You know my thoughts and actions on the subject, so I will not repeat them again.

Thanks!

[tangolima]

As I said somewhere else, the key is not to allow the brass to clink to the chamber wall in forward position without the bolt face supporting the head.

Light load is one way. Lubing the brass (not the bullet) with warmer-than-light loads is another. There are other methods of course.

Now you shouldn't start if you don't want to experiment. Handloading itself is experimenting. I think much has been talked about. Part of it is just repeats.

-TL

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[Yosemite Steve]

As I said somewhere else, the key is not to allow the brass to clink to the chamber wall in forward position without the bolt face supporting the head.

Right. I think that keeping the case back is really the only consideration I have left. If I remove the ejector pin there will be no forward pressure on the case until the firing pin strikes. I have read where removing the expansion ball from the die gives a tighter grip on the bullet as well to prevent forward movement. My lands begin somewhat gently, I'm guessing from wear, so seating my bullet on the lands may not prevent some forward movement from happening when the firing pin strikes. Has anyone ever made a bolt that locks the case against the bolt face when it is chambered? It seems to me like it would not be hard to make and would be useful to the reloader.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Steve

Right. I think that keeping the case back is really the only consideration I have left. If I remove the ejector pin there will be no forward pressure on the case until the firing pin strikes. I have read where removing the expansion ball from the die gives a tighter grip on the bullet as well to prevent forward movement. My lands begin somewhat gently, I'm guessing from wear, so seating my bullet on the lands may not prevent some forward movement from happening when the firing pin strikes. Has anyone ever made a bolt that locks the case against the bolt face when it is chambered? It seems to me like it would not be hard to make and would be useful to the reloader.

I wouldn't worry about the ejector as long as the round fires. Its spring is no comparison to the pressure generated by the burning powder. It wouldn't hurt to take it off if you wouldn't mind more experimenting.

I used COW and it worked.

-TL

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[T. O'Heir]

17 thou is a lot. On a .30-06 it means you have no headspace at all.
I'd just pitch 'em. Fiddling with short .30-06 cases is not worth the time and effort. Graf's will sell you 100 pieces of new, primed, Federal brass (bullets pulled for some reason) for $37.99.

[F. Guffey]

I had some 308 that was too short - about 0.02”. I tried all kinds of things - all resulted in separation. It just isn’t worth the risk - I chucked the cases in the trash.

.020" too short? Again, the case has two lengths, one is measured from the end of the neck to the case head and the other is measured from the datum to the case head. I use the one that is measured from the datum to the case head to off set the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face.

There is another length that is measured from the datum to the end of the neck, that one comes in handy when trimming cases with trimmers that set-up on the shoulder. When trimming off of the shoulder it helps if the reloader can keep up with the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

I had some 308 that was too short - about 0.02”. I tried all kinds of things - all resulted in separation. It just isn’t worth the risk - I chucked the cases in the trash.

Had you formed your 308W cases from 30/06 cases you couldn't miss; the difference in length between the 308W and 30/06 is .479.
It means nothing to most but my favorite forming die is the 308 W forming die, next? There is the 243W forming die.

F. Guffey

[Yosemite Steve]

T. O'Heir.... no headspace at all? I have too much. I must be reading you wrong. It's .017" that I am short.

[StripesDude]

Yosemite - I tried COW, several weights of bullets with different powder charges, crimp and no crimp. Nothing worked. I don’t have the patience to find just the combination to stretch the brass just enough, at the right pressure, so as to not rupture it. Too much trouble for the risk involved so I tossed them.

Guffey - I may regret asking but why would I form 308 cases from 30-06 when I can buy 308 cases?

[hounddawg]

If I am understanding correctly the case has .017 forward movement? Will a primer fire using COW? I have never done any fire forming for my own guns but have witnessed and helped a time or two and they guys who were doing it put the bullet in the lands so the head was back against the bolt to prevent misfires.

Is this the same rifle that had headpsace issues due to the bolt head change out ? Did you ever get that corrected ?

[F. Guffey]

T. O'Heir.... no headspace at all? I have too much. I must be reading you wrong. It's .017" that I am short.

No head space at all? You have no clearance....at all.

Again, manufacturers of components do not make cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. I have no problem solving problems with the 308W chamber with 30/06 cases. When I have a problem with 30/06 chambers I solve the problem with 280 Remington cases; with .051" additional case length from the end of the neck to the case head I can not miss.

F. Guffey

[Yosemite Steve]

Is this the same rifle that had headpsace issues due to the bolt head change out ? Did you ever get that corrected ?

Yes. The idea here is to get the brass I resized to fit the short chamber back to the size of the corrected chamber.

[std7mag]

06 casings are cheap, comparitively.

If you were looking at 425 Westley Richards casings $109 for a box of 20, IF you can find them, it would be different.

If you really insist on using those casings i would anneal them, load low-mid charge, with bullet into the lands.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Yosemite Steve

Yes. The idea here is to get the brass I resized to fit the short chamber back to the size of the corrected chamber.

Which is the same as to lengthen a new brass to fit an oversized chamber of a milsurp rifle. They don't sell long brass for those, you know. People do that all the time. I didn't it a few times.

-TL

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[mikld]

I was too wondering about making 308 outta 30-06. I have purchased a bunch (200-300) of inexpensive 7.62x51 LC once fired cases that work quire well in my 308. I just clean, FL size, measure and trim if necessary, remove primer crimps and load just like I do my 308 brass (different powder charges reached in a work up). I get several 7/8" groups and an occasional 3/4" group in my Ruger bolt gun, just as good as Hornady or Nosler brass...

[HiBC]

The recommendation to first sort the brass to identify those with the problem,and pitch the short ones might very well be the most practical and the safest choice.
If you don't already know,you can get a hardware store aluminum spacer bushing with a .375 plus clearance hole in it . That and your calipers won't give you a dimension to measure your brass,but you can compare it to other,correct length brass.

Now,as far as recommending "What next?" That's a lot like asking "How thin of ice can I go out ice fishing on?"

The methods you have suggested ,on your own suggest you know what it is you want to accomplish and some methods that may well achieve it. And you have to decide how thick you want the ice to be before you walk on it,because you are the one who will be all alone in the ice water in the middle of the lake if you get it wrong.

If you do decide to try COW,consider you will be spending the money for the COW plus a pound of Bullseye plus primers.
In Ken Waters "Pet Loads",IIRC, Ken suggests about 10% of a normal charge weight in Bullseye,so about 5 1/2 gr.. If I was not getting the results with 7 gr,I'd slow way down.Bullseye is pretty sudden stuff.

You might well have $25 or better in trying to save the brass.

Cheap 30 cal bullets,long seated? I'd guess 170 gr round nose 30-30 might be as cheap as any. Can you get those much cheaper than $18 or $20? A couple dollars worth of primers,powder ? you get about 140 loads for a pound of powder.Thats abouy 18 cents a shot for power,3 cents for a primer,and what?15 cents for a bullet. 36 cents to pull the trigger. How much does new brass cost?
I'm just suggesting do the math on what will be what,three times fired brass?
Good luck!

[Yosemite Steve]

HiBC, that's about where I am. As much as I would like to toy with this I really think my money would best be spent on reliability. The thread is here to learn more than it is to do from. Through all of this Q&A I have learned that I will add a new step to my reloading process and that is to fire form the brass "properly". Before I would simply shoot rounds through a gun and dedicate those rounds to that gun and partial length size them. Now that I have been doing some measuring I see that all of those shot rounds have varying case head to datum lengths due to the many variables in powder charges, seating depths, etc. and now my gun is changed.

Moving forward I will use a more defined method to fire form... OR..

What if I fire the round through my Enfield first? It has a larger chamber. I could then partial size until it will just fit in my Savage. I believe that is what Mr. Guffey is eluding to in the stories about how he is sizing downward. I believe I might get more use from all the brass that way. Kind of like handing down clothes to the little brother. The only question is... Where will the shoulder move to when the sized brass from the Enfield is fired through the Savage?

[Mobuck]

Run an 8mm neck expander into the case and then resize it properly

[rodfac]

Run an 8mm neck expander into the case and then resize it properly

Pretty good advice as it creates a false shoulder which holds the case back against the bolt face as the round is chambered. Rod