.308 168 bthp

gofast1320 · December 12, 2011, 12:22 AM

Been out of Hi-Power since early 90s. Getting back in it with a new Springfield Armory M1A.
I think the powder and load I used to use was 43.5 grains of IMR 4895 with a Sierra 168 BTHP.

That sounding about right? Any alternatives also appreciated.
Thanks

oakfloor · December 12, 2011, 12:29 AM

41.5 IMR 4895 in LC cases and Fed 210M primers worked well in mine, but now it's 42.0 AA 2520 forever.

**Unclenick** · December 12, 2011, 05:09 PM

I ran 2520 one year in the mid 90's but couldn't get it under about 1.2 moa with it until I tried deburring flash holes. Then it went down to 0.7 moa same as my stick powder loads. The stuff was just harder to light. None of the stick powders needed that extra effort, though. Magnum primers might have done the same thing for me, but that was before I knew to try them.

43.5 grains of IMR 4064 was the load Federal used to use in .308 Gold Medal Match with their brass, primers, and the 168 grain MatchKing. Their brass is a bit soft but fairly typical in commercial case water overflow capacity, being, it seems to me, around 57 grains. I used to run either Lake City or Remington or IMI brass. Not interchangeable, exactly. The following loads performed in the same balpark in them as far as accuracy goes (good accuracy, that is):

168 grain SMK, 2.8" COL, FED 210M primer.

IMR 4895
Rem case 44.5 gr.
LC case 44.0 gr.
IMI case 43.7 gr.

IMR 4064
Rem case 43.7 gr.
LC case 43.0 gr.
IMI case 42.8 gr.

Varget (mid 90's lot)
Rem case 44.3 gr.
LC case 43.7 gr.
IMI case 43.5 gr.

You can see a pattern there. The Remington cases are all running about half a grain higher than the LC, which are about 1/4 grain higher than the IMI. I don't recall when Reloader 15 came out, but I never tried it, though the military likes it for M118LR and it is what Federal uses in the .308 GMM now. I ran some Reloader 12 in that gun at one point, but it's no longer available. Neither is Brigadier 3032, which that gun thought was the cat's meow. So I won't bother posting loads of either.

I did have occasion to try some 1000 yard shooting with that rifle. That was with 45.5 grains of IMR 4320 in a Winchester case under a 175 grain SMK (the 168's get unstable before they get to 1000 yards). 2.8" COL and 210M primer. The Winchester case is bigger inside than any of the others and lets you use a bit more powder.

It's been awhile since I ran the M1A in a match. I would probably switch to a harder primer now, having since become more familiar with the slam fire issues, though I never personally had any trouble with the 210M. The #34 primer might bring some of my loads down a couple of percent. I'd have to try them to see.

Obviously, any of the above data should be reduced at least 5% for a different, newer chamber, and another 5% for having different primers and different lots of powder, then worked up in your gun while looking for an accuracy sweet spot.

gofast1320 · December 12, 2011, 06:51 PM

Unclenick,
Would you school me a bit there? Specifically what primer would you consider to be harder.
BTW I shot Hi-power from 1980-1994. I always shot a gun that was built and issued me. Likewise, I shot bullets that came in a lot of little brown boxes with black lettering or white boxes with red and blue writing and they all came in big green cans in wooden crates. During all that time I heard of a slam fire but only actually saw one. That happened on the 600 yd line at Ft Campbell during the Kentucky State Championships. I was scoring a shooter and he had just rolled back in to shooting position after having acknowledged seeing the same score as I on the previous shot. He released the bolt and Blam!!! there was a cloud of grass and dust from under the rifle and I was wondering what the hey? and what is that jacked up black steel thing (magazine opened up like a morning glory). Split the stock and put brass specks in the shooters cheek. I told him- Dude you gonna need another gun?
That may have been a reload but I don't know. Just know I don't want to have one blow.
Thanks for all the input folks

30Cal · December 12, 2011, 08:04 PM

41gr IMR4895 in a LC case would be about right for a 168gr.

I shoot the 125gr TNT at 200yds. No need for the extra recoil where you need it least.

**Unclenick** · December 12, 2011, 09:57 PM

You can come close to M852 with about 42 grains of IMR4895 over a soft primer and 41.5 over a warmer one. 41 grains may also do it with some magnum primers in some chambers. And that's to meet the government match load specs with 168's in LC cases.

The loads I gave are what I used at 600. They were good accuracy loads that came closer to the older M118SB velocity performance, which gives a small wind advantage at the longer range. But you tune it to your gun and do what your gun likes.

At 200 and 300, to hold down rapid fire recoil recovery, I often shot either 150 grain SMK's or, when I could get them, the Berger flat base 150 (the best 150 .30 cal match bullet, IMHO) over just 42 grains of 4895 or 41 grains of 4064 or 41.6 grains of Varget, and that was very easy digestion. The only warning is to use the same powder for short range loads that you do for your long range loads, as the bore usually has to settle some as the fouling pattern changes.

Gofast1320,

The in-battery slamfire, where the gun goes off throwing the shot wild is a lot more common than the out-of-battery slamfire you witnessed. The in-battery type does no damage to the gun, while the out-of-battery type can be very dangerous. Nobody knows how to eliminate them completely. In handloads either kind is usually attributable to a high primer. Primers should be 0.003" to 0.005" below flush with the case head. Often people just push primers in until they feel the primer touch the bottom of the primer pocket, but Federal says the large rifle primers should then be forced in an additional 0.003" to correctly set the bridge of priming compound between the anvil and cup on the inside. 0.002" for small rifle primers.

The Forster Co-ax press has a primer seater built in that forces the correct condition, but just seating fairly hard is all it takes. Just be sure to check every case with your finger until you get the feel of it.

The second line of defense is a primer that is harder to set off. I shot the Federal 210M's for years with no problem, but board member Slamfire had two out-of-battery slamfires with them that destroyed two Garands, and I've decided to stop using them in the gas guns for extra insurance. CCI makes a military hardness spec primer called a #34 (a copy of the military type 34 primer) just for the floating firing pin gas guns. Tula and Wolf sell a Russian made primer called a KVB762 which is also military hard and is much less expensive. I've used both now without problems.

tomt53 · December 13, 2011, 06:56 PM

This link might help with primers.

http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html

gofast1320 · December 13, 2011, 08:08 PM

Again thanks to all that replied with a bunch of great information.

150 flat base bergers- yeah those were nasty. A buddy loaded me about 50 of those and I shot my first clean at 200 sitting (200-6x) with those.

I've heard about some of those reduced range matches, may have to check out some of those 125 gr beasties

December 12, 2011, 12:22 AM	#1
gofast1320 Member Join Date: December 11, 2011 Location: Middle TN Posts: 41	.308 168 bthp Been out of Hi-Power since early 90s. Getting back in it with a new Springfield Armory M1A. I think the powder and load I used to use was 43.5 grains of IMR 4895 with a Sierra 168 BTHP. That sounding about right? Any alternatives also appreciated. Thanks

December 12, 2011, 06:51 PM	#4
gofast1320 Member Join Date: December 11, 2011 Location: Middle TN Posts: 41	Harder Primer? Unclenick, Would you school me a bit there? Specifically what primer would you consider to be harder. BTW I shot Hi-power from 1980-1994. I always shot a gun that was built and issued me. Likewise, I shot bullets that came in a lot of little brown boxes with black lettering or white boxes with red and blue writing and they all came in big green cans in wooden crates. During all that time I heard of a slam fire but only actually saw one. That happened on the 600 yd line at Ft Campbell during the Kentucky State Championships. I was scoring a shooter and he had just rolled back in to shooting position after having acknowledged seeing the same score as I on the previous shot. He released the bolt and Blam!!! there was a cloud of grass and dust from under the rifle and I was wondering what the hey? and what is that jacked up black steel thing (magazine opened up like a morning glory). Split the stock and put brass specks in the shooters cheek. I told him- Dude you gonna need another gun? That may have been a reload but I don't know. Just know I don't want to have one blow. Thanks for all the input folks __________________ NRA Endowment Member, Life TSRA Member

December 12, 2011, 09:57 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	You can come close to M852 with about 42 grains of IMR4895 over a soft primer and 41.5 over a warmer one. 41 grains may also do it with some magnum primers in some chambers. And that's to meet the government match load specs with 168's in LC cases. The loads I gave are what I used at 600. They were good accuracy loads that came closer to the older M118SB velocity performance, which gives a small wind advantage at the longer range. But you tune it to your gun and do what your gun likes. At 200 and 300, to hold down rapid fire recoil recovery, I often shot either 150 grain SMK's or, when I could get them, the Berger flat base 150 (the best 150 .30 cal match bullet, IMHO) over just 42 grains of 4895 or 41 grains of 4064 or 41.6 grains of Varget, and that was very easy digestion. The only warning is to use the same powder for short range loads that you do for your long range loads, as the bore usually has to settle some as the fouling pattern changes. Gofast1320, The in-battery slamfire, where the gun goes off throwing the shot wild is a lot more common than the out-of-battery slamfire you witnessed. The in-battery type does no damage to the gun, while the out-of-battery type can be very dangerous. Nobody knows how to eliminate them completely. In handloads either kind is usually attributable to a high primer. Primers should be 0.003" to 0.005" below flush with the case head. Often people just push primers in until they feel the primer touch the bottom of the primer pocket, but Federal says the large rifle primers should then be forced in an additional 0.003" to correctly set the bridge of priming compound between the anvil and cup on the inside. 0.002" for small rifle primers. The Forster Co-ax press has a primer seater built in that forces the correct condition, but just seating fairly hard is all it takes. Just be sure to check every case with your finger until you get the feel of it. The second line of defense is a primer that is harder to set off. I shot the Federal 210M's for years with no problem, but board member Slamfire had two out-of-battery slamfires with them that destroyed two Garands, and I've decided to stop using them in the gas guns for extra insurance. CCI makes a military hardness spec primer called a #34 (a copy of the military type 34 primer) just for the floating firing pin gas guns. Tula and Wolf sell a Russian made primer called a KVB762 which is also military hard and is much less expensive. I've used both now without problems. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; December 13, 2011 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Typos and corrections

December 13, 2011, 08:08 PM	#8
gofast1320 Member Join Date: December 11, 2011 Location: Middle TN Posts: 41	Primer info Again thanks to all that replied with a bunch of great information. 150 flat base bergers- yeah those were nasty. A buddy loaded me about 50 of those and I shot my first clean at 200 sitting (200-6x) with those. I've heard about some of those reduced range matches, may have to check out some of those 125 gr beasties __________________ NRA Endowment Member, Life TSRA Member

December 12, 2011, 12:29 AM	#2
oakfloor Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2009 Posts: 111	41.5 IMR 4895 in LC cases and Fed 210M primers worked well in mine, but now it's 42.0 AA 2520 forever.

December 12, 2011, 05:09 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I ran 2520 one year in the mid 90's but couldn't get it under about 1.2 moa with it until I tried deburring flash holes. Then it went down to 0.7 moa same as my stick powder loads. The stuff was just harder to light. None of the stick powders needed that extra effort, though. Magnum primers might have done the same thing for me, but that was before I knew to try them. 43.5 grains of IMR 4064 was the load Federal used to use in .308 Gold Medal Match with their brass, primers, and the 168 grain MatchKing. Their brass is a bit soft but fairly typical in commercial case water overflow capacity, being, it seems to me, around 57 grains. I used to run either Lake City or Remington or IMI brass. Not interchangeable, exactly. The following loads performed in the same balpark in them as far as accuracy goes (good accuracy, that is): 168 grain SMK, 2.8" COL, FED 210M primer. IMR 4895 Rem case 44.5 gr. LC case 44.0 gr. IMI case 43.7 gr. IMR 4064 Rem case 43.7 gr. LC case 43.0 gr. IMI case 42.8 gr. Varget (mid 90's lot) Rem case 44.3 gr. LC case 43.7 gr. IMI case 43.5 gr. You can see a pattern there. The Remington cases are all running about half a grain higher than the LC, which are about 1/4 grain higher than the IMI. I don't recall when Reloader 15 came out, but I never tried it, though the military likes it for M118LR and it is what Federal uses in the .308 GMM now. I ran some Reloader 12 in that gun at one point, but it's no longer available. Neither is Brigadier 3032, which that gun thought was the cat's meow. So I won't bother posting loads of either. I did have occasion to try some 1000 yard shooting with that rifle. That was with 45.5 grains of IMR 4320 in a Winchester case under a 175 grain SMK (the 168's get unstable before they get to 1000 yards). 2.8" COL and 210M primer. The Winchester case is bigger inside than any of the others and lets you use a bit more powder. It's been awhile since I ran the M1A in a match. I would probably switch to a harder primer now, having since become more familiar with the slam fire issues, though I never personally had any trouble with the 210M. The #34 primer might bring some of my loads down a couple of percent. I'd have to try them to see. Obviously, any of the above data should be reduced at least 5% for a different, newer chamber, and another 5% for having different primers and different lots of powder, then worked up in your gun while looking for an accuracy sweet spot. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 12, 2011, 08:04 PM	#5
30Cal Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Posts: 1,264	41gr IMR4895 in a LC case would be about right for a 168gr. I shoot the 125gr TNT at 200yds. No need for the extra recoil where you need it least.

December 13, 2011, 06:56 PM	#7
tomt53 Member Join Date: April 2, 2011 Location: Central Florida Posts: 15	This link might help with primers. http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html