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Old December 14, 2005, 10:04 PM   #1
Doug.38PR
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How do you handle a revolver as opposed to an auto

(NOTE, ALL PICTURES OF ME HOLDING THE GUN WERE TAKEN AFTER I UNLOADED THE GUN, DOUBLE CHECKING BOTH BY EYE AND EJECTOR ROD. SAFETY IS QUITE IMPORTANT WHEN HANDLING GUNS)

In CHL class our CHL instructor told us all about how you always keep your finger off the trigger and how you put your index finger on the trigger guard or the frame of the gun. I understand this as it relates to semi automatics. It's pretty easy and and fits between your hand and the gun. Don't want the gun going off prematurely.
However, as I see it, this tactic doesn't really work as well for revolvers. If your finger isn't in the guard, the gun isn't as secure in your hand:





easy for hte gun to flop around in your grip and even out of your hand if the situation is too critical

Personally, I handle the revolver in the following manner:





To me it makes sense. Your hand or thumb is securing the hammer and you can instantly spring the gun into firing position in your palm while the gun is at all times secure in your hand. Plus even if you feel you need your finger on the trigger ready for the gun to fire, you are still somewhat okay as it is a double action and not single action ready to pop off at the jump of a nervous shooter
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Old December 14, 2005, 10:05 PM   #2
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Old December 14, 2005, 10:28 PM   #3
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Forgive me for saying so but it appears that the money spent on the class was wasted. The same holds true for revolvers as semi's (at least in my book). I see no difference in weapon security, revolver vs semiauto, as regards keeping the finger off the trigger.

Perhaps the instructor might know what he(or she) is talking about.
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Old December 14, 2005, 10:35 PM   #4
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yeah, it's kind of funny

but I've noticed in the last few years, even out in the garage when I handle my Makita or my pneumatic air wrench...my index finger is pointed straight forward.

My SO laughs at me, but...muscle memory is not a bad thing.

Owning pistols/revos without manual safeties...tends to reinforce the behaviour...perhaps another not-so-bad thing.
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Old December 14, 2005, 10:46 PM   #5
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I don't understand why you hold your finger so far away from the frame when you are indexing.
It almost looks like you are trying to demonstrate, ala infomercials, how difficult it is to do.

The way you advocate is a very unsecure , weak grip

I don't feel any difference in carrying a revolver or auto properly

I can take phots if you'd like
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Old December 14, 2005, 11:01 PM   #6
Doug.38PR
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Quote:
It almost looks like you are trying to demonstrate, ala infomercials, how difficult it is to do.

The way you advocate is a very unsecure , weak grip
That's exactly what I'm trying to demonstrate. It's so easy for hte revolver to flop out of position. It isn't very secure. An auto, especially with it's more massive grip and the position of the trigger guard in relation to the grip, it's almost as if the auto is made for you to be able to index.
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Old December 14, 2005, 11:04 PM   #7
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That's exactly what I'm trying to demonstrate. It's so easy for hte revolver to flop out of position. It isn't very secure. An auto, especially with it's more massive grip and the position of the trigger guard in relation to the grip,
I honestly have not noticed it.

My finger rides just below the cylinder in the same location on the frame as with an auto.
With no noticable difference in retention
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Old December 14, 2005, 11:13 PM   #8
Doug.38PR
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mine too, the difference I see and feel is that on an automatic 1) your finger can almost wrap around the front of the trigger guard securing it, 2) the shape and size of the grip fit secure into my hand moreso than the grip of the revolver.
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Old December 15, 2005, 12:43 AM   #9
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Couple of points.

Instead of saying "revolvers", perhaps it may be more to the point saying "My revolver, the Colt with small grips". I've not felt that target grips, which most revolvers have been equiped with for most of the past 40 years or so, give a poor grasp on the gun. The target grips give very good control of the gun. If you feel you may lose control, or even drop your gun from the way you handle it, you may need more practice, and grips that fit your hand better. I've never, ever, in the 30-some years I've been fooling with them, dropped a DA revolver, nor felt there was any danger of doing so in use, hunting, chasing rabbits and squirrels, deer, coyotes, snakes, etc.

I'm not sure why you show your hand way up on the frame behind the hammer, instead of in a shooting position on the grip. Having to move your hand to cock it one handed isn't very quick. This is the reason we have trigger cocking (double action) guns, for quick shots. If you have trouble shooting double action well, then more practice might be in order. Cocking the hammer before shooting is nice, if you have the time, but good work can be done shooting double action. When discussing safety and speed of use, the double action is also simple and effective, safety wise, and speed wise, and more secure in the hand than trying to cock it manually one handed. I think it may be your technique, and small grips, rather than the type of gun.
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Old December 15, 2005, 08:42 AM   #10
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Old December 15, 2005, 09:42 AM   #11
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Doug38:
As pointed out, it looks like your hand position is all wrong among other things.

When keeping the finger off the trigger, mine rests on the frame just below the cylinder, above the trigger. In fact, my S&W K frames have a screw right at my fingertip. With the gun properly held, this is a secure grip and safe position for your finger.
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Old December 15, 2005, 10:25 AM   #12
Doug.38PR
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I'm not sure why you show your hand way up on the frame behind the hammer, instead of in a shooting position on the grip. Having to move your hand to cock it one handed isn't very quick. This is the reason we have trigger cocking (double action) guns, for quick shots. If you have trouble shooting double action well, then more practice might be in order. Cocking the hammer before shooting is nice, if you have the time, but good work can be done shooting double action. When discussing safety and speed of use, the double action is also simple and effective, safety wise, and speed wise, and more secure in the hand than trying to cock it manually one handed. I think it may be your technique, and small grips, rather than the type of gun.
Well, you misunderstand, it is not the intent of the hand/thumb to cock the trigger and shoot SA, for the hand or thumb to keep the hammer from going back in DA while the figer is on the trigger. An easy move of the gun in my palm allows the gun to be moved to firing position and shoot DA (which I do fairly well)

I think you are right about the grips (old guns vs more recent), I picked up my Highway Patrolman M28 S&W last night with massive target grips and it was indeed a lot easier to index the finger and also have a secure grip on the gun with the grips fitting snug into my palm without the support of the finger in the trigger guard. The problem is, the OP in these pictures (or any K frame gun of S&W) is easier concealed with regular instead of massive target grips (the target grips create something of a buldge as I noticed on a M-19 at a guns show upon puting it in my shoulder holster).

However, how long has indexing the been standard gun policy? Holsters made 20 some odd years ago (and even a few today) for DA revolvers don't have covers for the trigger guard (meaning you can draw the gun with your finger in the guard touching the trigger. I've seen old police holsters from the 40s or 50s without the trigger guard cover on them).

When my chl instructor was talking he was talking to a class that had all officially optioned to carry automatics (including me and my dad who were in the class. Even though we prefered revolvers, we liked to be able to carry both auto and revolver pistols if we ever needed to). It makes sense to index the frame on for glocks and 1911s and such guns where a nervous adrenaline pumped finger can jerk off a SA trigger with ease. However, as I SEE IT (not my chl instructor as another poster misunderstood) this is not so much of an issue with DA revolvers. There is quite a long and somewhat tight pull between where you are pulling the trigger and where the gun goes off. In an unintented way it is a safety of a sort. Like I said, I think this policy of indexing (that is pointing your index finger along the frame or trigger guard off the trigger) is a fairly recent development (perhaps with the rise of autos) because I've seen older holsters that do not have trigger guard covers on them.

Here is another indexing illustration of the revolver. See how it can not only flop to the side when indexing but, as this picture shows, flop downward:


Last edited by Doug.38PR; December 15, 2005 at 11:14 AM.
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Old December 15, 2005, 12:02 PM   #13
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that's what your other fingers are for

Use them. If you can't grip that revolver well, then trade it in on one you can. But for the love of Pete, get your #[email protected]#$$#ing finger OFF THAT TRIGGER.

You do not have to hold your index finger away from the revolver. YOu can stabilize the gun using that finger without it being inside the trigger guard. Yes, of course it is most stable when your finger is in there. IT IS ALSO THE MOST DANGEROUS.

Either alter your grip or alter your gun.

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Old December 15, 2005, 12:16 PM   #14
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*Sitting in front of his computer, with a puzzled expression and a CO2 revolver*

Huh. Never had a problem indexing a revolver. From your pics, it almost looks like you arn't holding the gun firmly.

But then again, I've never held a small revolver. Only a .44 mag, and an air pistol at least as big.
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Old December 15, 2005, 01:00 PM   #15
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Try holding it with 2 hands.
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Old December 15, 2005, 01:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
but I've noticed in the last few years, even out in the garage when I handle my Makita or my pneumatic air wrench...my index finger is pointed straight forward.
Ahh, you made me laugh. I do the same thing with my drill...Now I'm going to watch "This Old House" or the other DIY shows to see who is firearms trained.

I think your taking it a little to literally Doug. The reasoning is to prevent ADs by keeping you finger away from the trigger until your ready to shoot. You don't have to be so rigid about it, (unless your taking a class or something). My trigger finger usually takes occasional rest along the frame of the gun, slightly north of the trigger and south of the cylinder (or slide for autos). The rule is there for a reason. If your finger is inside the trigger guard and you trip and fall on your gun , Bang your shot.
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Old December 15, 2005, 02:08 PM   #17
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I'm not going to say anything except that I have never noticed a retention problem with revolvers with my finger indexed.

Also, I don't want to confuse my muscle memory by doing one thing with one type of gun and another with another type. To easy for the muscle memory to just use one or the other for both and I would rather have it remember finger off the trigger.

Wayne
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Old December 15, 2005, 02:20 PM   #18
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Keeping one's finger OUT of the triggerguard while drawing a handgun and preparing for its use is relatively new, I guess. I was taught that in the middle '40s, by a man who learned that method in the '20s, from a man who learned that shortly after 1900. It is new in the sense that single action PRE-COCKED handguns are relatively new.

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Old December 15, 2005, 02:39 PM   #19
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Same thing everyone else here is saying!

Keep your fingers in the same position on the grip and gun other than your trigger finger. Your trigger finger can ride alongside the frame just underneath the cylinder, or even alongside the triggerguard. BUT NOT INSIDE THE TRIGGER GUARD OR ON THE TRIGGER!!!

Also, like a couple others have said too: If you can't grip and control the gun in a safe manner comfortably and maintain good retention, then it's quite possible the gun isn't right for you. I know, it sucks; I've had to dis-consider a few I liked the looks of because they didn't fit me well.

However, you might just want to re-learn how to grip the gun, and maybe ask an instructor to help you until you get it down pat. Mrs. SnubFan is 4'11", 103 lbs., and can handle my .38 revolver safely, with relative ease.

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Old December 15, 2005, 04:50 PM   #20
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This works for me

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Old December 16, 2005, 05:53 PM   #21
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Make sure to get sights installed on the right hand side of the barrel there
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Old December 16, 2005, 06:30 PM   #22
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Think you need to get a little more of your finger in the trigger guard.

To answer the question:

-Revolvers: quite well, thank you

-Autos: I don't
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Old December 16, 2005, 06:37 PM   #23
Doug.38PR
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I think your taking it a little to literally Doug. The reasoning is to prevent ADs by keeping you finger away from the trigger until your ready to shoot.
On this note, I will say that you cannot fire the gun with your hand in those seen positions in the trigger guard. Your hand has to be like this in order to fire:


Your finger cannot pull the trigger back in these positions, try it yourself:



The other ways of handling it your thumb or hand is blocking the way, but with the two above ways, the hammer cannot move back
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Old December 16, 2005, 08:46 PM   #24
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Make sure to get sights installed on the right hand side of the barrel there
Holding gun in right hand taking pic with left hand, turned ghetto for a better photographic angle

Quote:
Think you need to get a little more of your finger in the trigger guard
If that was directed at my picture I'm not sure I understand. none of my finger is in the trigger guard whidh is the purpose of the exercise.
Quote:
The other ways of handling it your thumb or hand is blocking the way, but with the two above ways, the hammer cannot move back
That may be true in the exact position that you are holding the gun now, but what if the gun is forced downward somehow, like in a fall or many other ways. your finger is still in the trigger guard when you do not have a clear and/or intended target.

That's the way all NDs start
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Old December 17, 2005, 02:28 PM   #25
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Somewhere along the line I was told that ALL ND's (with modern firearms)involve a finger on the trigger. Every handgun I own prevents the firing pin from contacting the primer unless the trigger is depressed. Seems simple enough to keep the finger on the guard and ready to go when needed.

It sure seems like a lot of work done with the photos to justify an unsafe practice.
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