TFL dying?

baddarryl · April 2, 2023, 03:33 PM

Hi. I don't mean to be crass but it seems like the forum is losing activity. Is there anything to that? I like it here and hope we can make a difference. Thanks.

**Mal H** · April 2, 2023, 03:52 PM

Well, it's certainly slowed down quite a lot over the last decade or so, but dying? No.

The one statistic I look at for that aspect is the number of active members, and that has remained just about constant for a long time - well over 5 years.

(An active member is one who logs in at least once in a month's time.)

Electrod47 · April 2, 2023, 04:33 PM

quote..TFL dying?
Hi. I don't mean to be crass but it seems like the forum is losing activity. Is there anything to that? I like it here and hope we can make a difference. Thanks.

Bored already?.....

zoomie · April 2, 2023, 07:28 PM

This style forum is last generation. Gen Z doesn't go to vBulletin sites for info or interaction - they go to Snapchat, TT, YT, Insta, and whatever else is new out there. Even Facebook isn't popular among Z and Alpha.

BobCat45 · April 3, 2023, 07:18 AM

Not dying in the sense of being on the edge of no longer existing, but indeed slowing down, like a lot of us.

The internet forum is a leftover from earlier days, just like the Listserv and usenet groups - still viable but newer things are available now, so the traffic gets spread thinner.

I still read TFL every day because it is valuable. But I do not bother logging in unless I have something to post, which is infrequent - other people have more facts than I do, and usually state them more clearly and with less rambling.

HHollow · April 3, 2023, 10:10 AM

There are plenty of active gun-related forums out there. The active ones seem to have a focused rifle type; FAL, AK, AR, or a regional focus like INGO. Social media tends to restrict these topics, so here were are./

If you want to see what death looks like then view gunco.net

MarkCO · April 3, 2023, 10:16 AM

Less active, yes, but reports of it's death are greatly exaggerated.

I still scroll through TFL "New Posts" most days. Some topics, if there are already comments that I would ditto someone else, I'll just pass on by. I used to be on a lot of forums, and some I have not been back to in years. It's a time thing, and yes, so many formats so spread thinner.

I do spend more time on another forum that is more active, but also slowing a bit since CV became less of a thing. But half my time there is moderating. But TFL is 2nd as far and check ins and time for me.

One thing I do really like about other forums is the ability to respond (Like, Love, helpful, sad, etc.) to posts. Wish we had that here at TFL.

BarryLee · April 3, 2023, 11:21 AM

I still see it as a valuable tool and visit almost daily. I have noticed fewer, I don't know how to word it, but maybe less serious Posts. There don't seem to be as many folks trying to create controversy. Also, regrettably, there seem to be fewer Posts from new enthusiasts. Anyway, just my casual observation.

**Shane Tuttle** · April 3, 2023, 04:03 PM

Dying? No.

Slowing down? Absolutely.

Speculation of why? If you look at most respected forums out there, firearms or otherwise, their traffic has slowed down, as well. Many gravitate towards social media for Q & A and "discussions". People want to spend less time typing up questions involving long conversations and those that answer even less to respond. I believe the demographic of communication shifted sharply when Apps started to hit phones. People used to sit down at their computer or even laptop to have long, detailed discussions here. Now, most people use their cell phones. Not as many are going to spend that kind of time on a venue such as ours to type up well thought out comments using their phones. This place isn't an emoji-filled chat room with abbreviations dominating comments. That's the price we pay. But I personally wouldn't want our venue to change. You'll find fewer childish empty comments and more intellectual conversations.

FrankenMauser · April 4, 2023, 01:33 AM

I have been here for 15 years now.
I have been other places, on and off, for varying shorter times.
I now spend my "forum time" helping a couple businesses that engage in other ways and primarily attract a younger demographic.

My opinion, especially with my day-to-day exposing me more to Zoomers and Millennials in the gun world, is as follows:
Younger generations see forums as antiquated repositories of Boomerisms and far too slow for the immediate answer that modern technology allows them to get on other subjects.
They do search forums and read posts as "guests", because they know that useful information is buried within.

But they don't like taking part and don't sign up, unless to get some photos that they saw previews of in a google image search. They hate wading through the Boomerisms and ridiculous 5-page posts about some particular member's history with [X] rifle, just to see that they never answered the question, "Should my trigger have a little horn here? This one seems modified."
They hate asking a question, only to be berated for buying a stupid gun that they knew was stupid.
They hate asking a direct, pointed question, only to see zero replies for weeks, because no one else ever stepped back to ask, "Why is [that] the way it is?"
They hate the rants. They hate the tangents. They just hate forums, because they represent Boomers. And Zoomers (and many Millennials) just hate Boomers.

They are using other things now. Slack, Quora, Slingshot, Mumble, MeWe groups, Discord, Facebook groups, Twitter, Reddit, and more.
All of them have better response times than forums (even if the information is false and worthless), and many offer the equivalent of 24/7 live chat -- because that is pretty much what some of them are, just live, logged chat.

As Boomers die, there is no new blood to replace them on forums.
Boomers, Gen X, the lost generation, and Millennials, in their respective numbers, are all that is left.
As we leave, the numbers just dwindle. Zoomers rejoice as forums implode, disappear, and take with them decades of valuable information (but also a lot of garbage).

Zoomers are driving current trends in group communication, and they just hate forums.
It does not help that a huge number of popular forums have been sold to corporate entities in the last 5 years, resulting in the use of new forum software that has even more tracking abilities (bad - Zoomers hate this more than we do) and forcing even more ads down their throats - even if paying members of some special rank that reduces ads.

Zoomers hate forums. So the active member number will dwindle as the number still alive follows the sled ride down the back side of its Bell curve.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 4, 2023, 09:05 AM

^^^ What he said.

And it isn't just forum-type Internet sites that are seeing a decline. Yesterday I met a gentleman who turned out to be the incoming commander of my state's VFW organization. (I'm a life member of the VFW.) I mentioned that I have transitioned to being an at-large member because my town's post disbanded several years ago, then two years later the post to which I was transferred in a neighboring town also disbanded, so the VFW assigned me to a post in a town miles from home, where I don't know anyone and have no reason to go to.

He sympathized. His post is still viable, but he said in general the VFW and similar organizations are losing membership because the people coming out of the military today are not oriented to thinking about what they can offer to fellow veterans, they are only interested in what they can get.

Sad commentary, but I think it's an accurate assessment of what's wrong with the country today.

baddarryl · April 4, 2023, 09:25 AM

Hey thanks everyone. I guess I am one of those boomers and like it just fine! You are right though takes me effort to view and contribute that just opening an app on the phone. Sad, but true.

gwpercle · April 4, 2023, 03:47 PM

I'm still here !
Try to log on every day and help with any thing I can .
I still see lots of reloading questions .
We all getting older and slowing down a little .
Gary

FrankenMauser · April 4, 2023, 10:13 PM

The sad thing about the massive transition to alternate forms of communication - primarily modern "social media" - is that it is nearly impossible to search and some forms purge the history after designated amounts of time.

Among other losses....
There are some incredible discussions being had about discoveries in firearms development, individual war stories that went unseen, and cartridge evolution, across several (private) social media servers. Several *could* become books, but probably won't.
Yet, no one (else) can see it, no one can search it, and the evolution of the discovery and subsequent discoveries based on that information will eventually be purged and lost in the nether as the server sends magical pixies to delete the file entry and allow over-writing.

MarkCO · April 5, 2023, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

The sad thing about the massive transition to alternate forms of communication - primarily modern "social media" - is that it is nearly impossible to search and some forms purge the history after designated amounts of time.

Among other losses....
There are some incredible discussions being had about discoveries in firearms development, individual war stories that went unseen, and cartridge evolution, across several (private) social media servers. Several *could* become books, but probably won't.
Yet, no one (else) can see it, no one can search it, and the evolution of the discovery and subsequent discoveries based on that information will eventually be purged and lost in the nether as the server sends magical pixies to delete the file entry and allow over-writing.

That is occurring in all fields. The desire to write/publish works in hard copy or in a format that will remain, has diminished greatly. We are in a process of losing great swaths of developmental procedures for technological advancements since the McD mentality says we already have it. Totalitarianism's footprint won't let it come back I fear.

FITASC · April 5, 2023, 03:29 PM

This forum software makes simple tasks more difficult than other versions. When looking at sites like Shotgunworld or the 2 S&W forums, the ability to easily quote another poster, post pics, etc. is MUCH easier to do and easier to navigate. I think that adds somewhat to the slowing down on sites like this one

MarkCO · April 5, 2023, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FITASC

This forum software makes simple tasks more difficult than other versions. When looking at sites like Shotgunworld or the 2 S&W forums, the ability to easily quote another poster, post pics, etc. is MUCH easier to do and easier to navigate. I think that adds somewhat to the slowing down on sites like this one

That is the BIGGEST thing for me.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 5, 2023, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FITASC

This forum software makes simple tasks more difficult than other versions. When looking at sites like Shotgunworld or the 2 S&W forums, the ability to easily quote another poster, post pics, etc. is MUCH easier to do and easier to navigate. I think that adds somewhat to the slowing down on sites like this one

This is not a function of the vBulletin software, or the version. I have been a participant in a number of other forums that run vBulletin, including the same version that we use here. Long before I was invited to become a moderator, the administrators of this site decided to deactivate the quote function. It's there in the software, but TFL keeps it turned off.

No, I don't know why.

That said, quoting isn't difficult. Highlight the text you want to quote, go to the response window, click the little icon for "Quote," and paste the text between the "quote" tags.

Hawg · April 5, 2023, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

This is not a function of the vBulletin software, or the version. I have been a participant in a number of other forums that run vBulletin, including the same version that we use here. Long before I was invited to become a moderator, the administrators of this site decided to deactivate the quote function. It's there in the software, but TFL keeps it turned off.

No, I don't know why.

That said, quoting isn't difficult. Highlight the text you want to quote, go to the response window, click the little icon for "Quote," and paste the text between the "quote" tags.

You can quote with the persons name you're quoting but it's a more convoluted process than most forums. I don't spend a lot of time here. I'm 66 and I prefer a forum that's not as straight laced as this one.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 5, 2023, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawg

You can quote with the persons name you're quoting but it's a more convoluted process than most forums. I don't spend a lot of time here. I'm 66 and I prefer a forum that's not as straight laced as this one.

Yes, you can do it -- as I just did here. I do it regularly. The point is that the software we use, vBulletin, has that function built into it but the function is disabled on The Firing Line. To quote on TFL requires a couple of manual steps that aren't needed on most forums that run vBulletin.

Nathan · April 6, 2023, 04:55 AM

It’s a pretty simple equation. Forums are on a slight decline overall. Then this one seems to have struggled with:

Heavy handed moderation….can be a good or bad thing. It is a balance
Lack of sales feedback system
Lack of sales activity
Lack of focused conversation areas like Glock only, single shot pistol
Lack of industry engagement
Rude members…seems like many “first posts” go south or off on a tangent

Probably other things. This is a short list.

shafter · April 6, 2023, 01:47 PM

I think TheHighRoad has more activity over there.

Hawg · April 6, 2023, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shafter

I think TheHighRoad has more activity over there.

They do and most of the mods aren't so heavy handed. A little thread drift doesn't hurt anything.

Nathan · April 6, 2023, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Yes, you can do it -- as I just did here. I do it regularly. The point is that the software we use, vBulletin, has that function built into it but the function is disabled on The Firing Line. To quote on TFL requires a couple of manual steps that aren't needed on most forums that run vBulletin.

Why is that shut off…just wondering…

FrankenMauser · April 6, 2023, 05:33 PM

The primary reason given a long time ago was 'abuse of quotes'.
Broken into three main factors:
A) Quoting when quoting was unnecessary.
B) Nested quotes getting out of control and overwhelming a thread with excessive, repetitive text.
C) People replying with new posts for each reply they wanted to quote, instead of making one reply with several quotes and responses in it.

tl;dr:
They wanted people to work for it, instead of crapping all over everyone's screens with excessive quotes.

April 2, 2023, 03:33 PM	#1
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	TFL dying? Hi. I don't mean to be crass but it seems like the forum is losing activity. Is there anything to that? I like it here and hope we can make a difference. Thanks.

April 3, 2023, 10:10 AM	#6
HHollow Junior Member Join Date: April 6, 2009 Location: Montana Posts: 13	There are plenty of active gun-related forums out there. The active ones seem to have a focused rifle type; FAL, AK, AR, or a regional focus like INGO. Social media tends to restrict these topics, so here were are./ If you want to see what death looks like then view gunco.net Last edited by HHollow; April 3, 2023 at 10:23 AM.

April 3, 2023, 10:16 AM	#7
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,308	Less active, yes, but reports of it's death are greatly exaggerated. I still scroll through TFL "New Posts" most days. Some topics, if there are already comments that I would ditto someone else, I'll just pass on by. I used to be on a lot of forums, and some I have not been back to in years. It's a time thing, and yes, so many formats so spread thinner. I do spend more time on another forum that is more active, but also slowing a bit since CV became less of a thing. But half my time there is moderating. But TFL is 2nd as far and check ins and time for me. One thing I do really like about other forums is the ability to respond (Like, Love, helpful, sad, etc.) to posts. Wish we had that here at TFL. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

April 3, 2023, 11:21 AM	#8
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	I still see it as a valuable tool and visit almost daily. I have noticed fewer, I don't know how to word it, but maybe less serious Posts. There don't seem to be as many folks trying to create controversy. Also, regrettably, there seem to be fewer Posts from new enthusiasts. Anyway, just my casual observation. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

April 3, 2023, 04:03 PM	#9
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	Dying? No. Slowing down? Absolutely. Speculation of why? If you look at most respected forums out there, firearms or otherwise, their traffic has slowed down, as well. Many gravitate towards social media for Q & A and "discussions". People want to spend less time typing up questions involving long conversations and those that answer even less to respond. I believe the demographic of communication shifted sharply when Apps started to hit phones. People used to sit down at their computer or even laptop to have long, detailed discussions here. Now, most people use their cell phones. Not as many are going to spend that kind of time on a venue such as ours to type up well thought out comments using their phones. This place isn't an emoji-filled chat room with abbreviations dominating comments. That's the price we pay. But I personally wouldn't want our venue to change. You'll find fewer childish empty comments and more intellectual conversations. __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

April 2, 2023, 03:52 PM	#2
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Well, it's certainly slowed down quite a lot over the last decade or so, but dying? No. The one statistic I look at for that aspect is the number of active members, and that has remained just about constant for a long time - well over 5 years. (An active member is one who logs in at least once in a month's time.)

April 2, 2023, 04:33 PM	#3
Electrod47 Member Join Date: April 27, 2021 Location: SE Mississippi Posts: 92	quote..TFL dying? Hi. I don't mean to be crass but it seems like the forum is losing activity. Is there anything to that? I like it here and hope we can make a difference. Thanks. Bored already?.....

April 2, 2023, 07:28 PM	#4
zoomie Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Location: GA Posts: 1,864	This style forum is last generation. Gen Z doesn't go to vBulletin sites for info or interaction - they go to Snapchat, TT, YT, Insta, and whatever else is new out there. Even Facebook isn't popular among Z and Alpha.

April 3, 2023, 07:18 AM	#5
BobCat45 Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: East Bernard, TX Posts: 524	Not dying in the sense of being on the edge of no longer existing, but indeed slowing down, like a lot of us. The internet forum is a leftover from earlier days, just like the Listserv and usenet groups - still viable but newer things are available now, so the traffic gets spread thinner. I still read TFL every day because it is valuable. But I do not bother logging in unless I have something to post, which is infrequent - other people have more facts than I do, and usually state them more clearly and with less rambling.

April 4, 2023, 01:33 AM	#10
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	I have been here for 15 years now. I have been other places, on and off, for varying shorter times. I now spend my "forum time" helping a couple businesses that engage in other ways and primarily attract a younger demographic. My opinion, especially with my day-to-day exposing me more to Zoomers and Millennials in the gun world, is as follows: Younger generations see forums as antiquated repositories of Boomerisms and far too slow for the immediate answer that modern technology allows them to get on other subjects. They do search forums and read posts as "guests", because they know that useful information is buried within. But they don't like taking part and don't sign up, unless to get some photos that they saw previews of in a google image search. They hate wading through the Boomerisms and ridiculous 5-page posts about some particular member's history with [X] rifle, just to see that they never answered the question, "Should my trigger have a little horn here? This one seems modified." They hate asking a question, only to be berated for buying a stupid gun that they knew was stupid. They hate asking a direct, pointed question, only to see zero replies for weeks, because no one else ever stepped back to ask, "Why is [that] the way it is?" They hate the rants. They hate the tangents. They just hate forums, because they represent Boomers. And Zoomers (and many Millennials) just hate Boomers. They are using other things now. Slack, Quora, Slingshot, Mumble, MeWe groups, Discord, Facebook groups, Twitter, Reddit, and more. All of them have better response times than forums (even if the information is false and worthless), and many offer the equivalent of 24/7 live chat -- because that is pretty much what some of them are, just live, logged chat. As Boomers die, there is no new blood to replace them on forums. Boomers, Gen X, the lost generation, and Millennials, in their respective numbers, are all that is left. As we leave, the numbers just dwindle. Zoomers rejoice as forums implode, disappear, and take with them decades of valuable information (but also a lot of garbage). Zoomers are driving current trends in group communication, and they just hate forums. It does not help that a huge number of popular forums have been sold to corporate entities in the last 5 years, resulting in the use of new forum software that has even more tracking abilities (bad - Zoomers hate this more than we do) and forcing even more ads down their throats - even if paying members of some special rank that reduces ads. Zoomers hate forums. So the active member number will dwindle as the number still alive follows the sled ride down the back side of its Bell curve. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

April 4, 2023, 09:05 AM	#11
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,476	^^^ What he said. And it isn't just forum-type Internet sites that are seeing a decline. Yesterday I met a gentleman who turned out to be the incoming commander of my state's VFW organization. (I'm a life member of the VFW.) I mentioned that I have transitioned to being an at-large member because my town's post disbanded several years ago, then two years later the post to which I was transferred in a neighboring town also disbanded, so the VFW assigned me to a post in a town miles from home, where I don't know anyone and have no reason to go to. He sympathized. His post is still viable, but he said in general the VFW and similar organizations are losing membership because the people coming out of the military today are not oriented to thinking about what they can offer to fellow veterans, they are only interested in what they can get. Sad commentary, but I think it's an accurate assessment of what's wrong with the country today. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

April 4, 2023, 09:25 AM	#12
baddarryl Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2011 Location: Cape Fear! Posts: 1,683	Hey thanks everyone. I guess I am one of those boomers and like it just fine! You are right though takes me effort to view and contribute that just opening an app on the phone. Sad, but true.

April 4, 2023, 03:47 PM	#13
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	I'm still here ! Try to log on every day and help with any thing I can . I still see lots of reloading questions . We all getting older and slowing down a little . Gary

April 4, 2023, 10:13 PM	#14
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	The sad thing about the massive transition to alternate forms of communication - primarily modern "social media" - is that it is nearly impossible to search and some forms purge the history after designated amounts of time. Among other losses.... There are some incredible discussions being had about discoveries in firearms development, individual war stories that went unseen, and cartridge evolution, across several (private) social media servers. Several could become books, but probably won't. Yet, no one (else) can see it, no one can search it, and the evolution of the discovery and subsequent discoveries based on that information will eventually be purged and lost in the nether as the server sends magical pixies to delete the file entry and allow over-writing. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

April 5, 2023, 03:29 PM	#16
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	This forum software makes simple tasks more difficult than other versions. When looking at sites like Shotgunworld or the 2 S&W forums, the ability to easily quote another poster, post pics, etc. is MUCH easier to do and easier to navigate. I think that adds somewhat to the slowing down on sites like this one __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

April 6, 2023, 04:55 AM	#21
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,334	It’s a pretty simple equation. Forums are on a slight decline overall. Then this one seems to have struggled with: Heavy handed moderation….can be a good or bad thing. It is a balance Lack of sales feedback system Lack of sales activity Lack of focused conversation areas like Glock only, single shot pistol Lack of industry engagement Rude members…seems like many “first posts” go south or off on a tangent Probably other things. This is a short list.

April 6, 2023, 01:47 PM	#22
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,624	I think TheHighRoad has more activity over there.

April 6, 2023, 05:33 PM	#25
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	The primary reason given a long time ago was 'abuse of quotes'. Broken into three main factors: A) Quoting when quoting was unnecessary. B) Nested quotes getting out of control and overwhelming a thread with excessive, repetitive text. C) People replying with new posts for each reply they wanted to quote, instead of making one reply with several quotes and responses in it. tl;dr: They wanted people to work for it, instead of crapping all over everyone's screens with excessive quotes. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.