No aluminum for HK?

HighValleyRanch · December 23, 2016, 12:45 PM

Why does HK say in their manual not to use rounds with aluminum casing?
From their enclosed manual:
"Caution....Use of steel or aluminum-cased cartridges is not recommended and could adversely affect safe and reliable functioning."

So no blazer or federal aluminum rounds?

JDBerg · December 23, 2016, 12:51 PM

I have shot thousands of rounds of Fed Champion aluminum case 9mm through my HK P30 in the last 2 years, it shoots reliably & accurately though this gun!

HighValleyRanch · December 23, 2016, 01:11 PM

Great to hear.
Just trying to understand the reasoning behind their advice.
Just liability?

dgludwig · December 23, 2016, 01:21 PM

I kind of get the "no steel" admonition but fail to see any reason why not to use aluminum cases. I bought a new HK USP40 22 years ago and, out of curiosity after reading HighValleyRanch's post, I checked the manual for this pistol to see if there were any restrictions on ammunition use. Aside from the obligatory warning to not use reloads, there were no other prohibitions.

I'd like to hear the reasons for not using ammunition with aluminum cases. It would seem that if HK has good reasons to bar the use of same, the same reason(s) would apply to other semi-auto pistols. Like JDBerg, I've run a ton of cartridges made from aluminum through more than a few auto pistols with no ill effect.

T. O'Heir · December 23, 2016, 01:32 PM

CYA for 'em. Same reason a lot of companies void their warrantee with the use of handloads.

Maverick36 · December 23, 2016, 01:34 PM

Same with my VP9 manual. I ran some Blazer Aluminum and had problems strictly ammo related (was recalled by Speer).Talked to my Buddy at HK and his answer was: liability issues/covering their ass . They are not "designed" for anything but brass although steel and aluminum should not be an issue.They just have to cover it because of the product liability lawyers

JDBerg · December 23, 2016, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highvalleyranch:

Great to hear. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind their advice. Just liability?

If you deal with with HK customer service about trigger modifications like I once did, there is no doubt that HK is completely "lawyered-up" with owners manual warnings about everything! And the "RTM" message on my P30 is molded in on the bottom of the trigger guard, so I don't forget to read the manual!

dgludwig · December 23, 2016, 02:55 PM

I don't get the "CYA" argument to explain the reason for no aluminum. Reloaded ammunition brings its own potential liabilities and I suppose one could argue that steel is hard on extractors but I've never read nor heard where aluminum is less safe or more injurious to steel than brass is.

PSP · December 23, 2016, 04:46 PM

There is the possibility of metal spalling from aluminum cases and over time this may lead to the chamber diameter being reduced. That may lead to problems.

HighValleyRanch · December 23, 2016, 04:56 PM

But wouldn't that be true for every other semi auto, and can't that be monitored with good maintenance and cleaning each time after use?

Are we to infer that HK has tighter tolerances then?

TunnelRat · December 23, 2016, 05:54 PM

You can infer whatever you want.

To me that is HK's way of saying that the pistol was designed to run optimally with brass cased ammunition. Brass is softer and expands better than aluminum or steel. That plays into the ejection and extraction process. I've shot steel and aluminum in HKs before without issues, but the ejection pattern maybe wasn't quite as nice and I've seen the cases not expand fully and more fouling get back into the workings of the pistol.

kozak6 · December 23, 2016, 07:26 PM

I've always wondered whether aluminum casings increase wear.

Aluminum metal is soft. However, the oxide layer is almost as hard and abrasive as it gets. But there's not much of it.

TunnelRat · December 23, 2016, 07:41 PM

It takes a metal of equal or greater hardness to damage a given metal. Aluminum cases aren't even close to the steel in an extractor.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GarrettJ · December 23, 2016, 09:32 PM

It likely stems from their firearms that had fluted chambers (MP5, P7, etc). Steel and aluminum grab the flutes differently than brass, causing issues.

Good reason there. They likely held that over for the non fluted chambers as well, because... Why not?

epwrangler · December 30, 2018, 11:07 AM

My son's new HK would not run with blazer brass but did great with cci aluminum. Both 115gn.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

reddog81 · December 30, 2018, 12:39 PM

Just a guess but steel and aluminum cases ammo is usually cheaper and maybe more likely to cause more reliability issues. HK can advise to not use this ammo and therefore avoid customer service issues when problems or reliability issues arise.

If you call customer service I'm sure they ask about the ammo used. If you mention steel or aluminum ammo they can just point to the manual and say stop using that ammo and hopefully your problems will disappear.

sigarms228 · December 30, 2018, 01:50 PM

HK seems to test their firearms pretty well. I believe they only test with factory fresh brass cased ammo and thus they do not recommend using anything other than brass cased ammo that meets SAAMI specs and if anyone has a problem with "other" ammo including aluminum then don't expect any warranty support or liability coverage from them concerning such. I think that is reasonable.

JDBerg · December 30, 2018, 03:47 PM

Interesting how this 2 yr. old thread got resurrected. I need to update my previous posts here by saying that I have shot plenty of (primarily Fed Champion) aluminum cased ammo with my P30 in the past, but not so much of late.

I still own this gun, and the slide does not lock back on an empty mag with this ammo. I’ll argue that a semiautomatic does not cycle ammo properly if it doesn’t lock back on an empty mag, but if I’m practicing tactical mag reloads it’s not going to matter anyway.

Skans · December 31, 2018, 08:41 AM

Quote:

If you deal with with HK customer service about trigger modifications like I once did, there is no doubt that HK is completely "lawyered-up" with owners manual warnings about everything!

All of the gun manufacturers are. This is why I never even consider the warranty that comes with the gun - they are all essentially useless if the gun maker doesn't want to repair your gun. I would much prefer to purchase a high-quality, test proven, over engineered gun with no warranty at all, but which has parts widely available.

JDBerg · December 31, 2018, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skans:

This is why I never even consider the warranty that comes with the gun

There is plenty of legal stuff in the OM’s of everything we buy & use. The original retail owner of any HK firearm datecoded past 01/01/1998 has a limited lifetime warranty on the firearm. This is conditional per exclusions of liability and warranty clause in the manual. I bought 2 of my HK’s new and one used so this is all reasonable and I’m OK with it.

Ignition Override · January 2, 2019, 01:30 AM

There are claims by individuals that aluminum-cased 9mm ammo has narrower extraction grooves than with brass ammo. I have no idea, but---

US-made aluminum ammo in the white/blue box caused the first minor malfunctions in my CZ PO-1.
It either didn't correctly extract, or possibly didn't eject.

tipoc · January 3, 2019, 11:32 AM

Aluminum cases have an increased risk of case separation and of erratic ejection over brass. This is due to galling of the aluminum in the chamber over time. The case expands but has a rougher texture to it than brass cases and so resists extraction to a greater degree. They tend to stick more than brass. It also has a tendency to leave bits of itself in the chamber at times.

I've run aluminum cases in some guns without issue but in others problems have developed with extraction. I reserve aluminum cases, mostly, for revolvers.

Most folks, I think, discover this on the range and pick their way through it. Meaning we use what works in our guns and don't use what is problematic. Same with steel cases.

Companies, large and small, employ CYA to varying degrees. That's why Ruger has billboards on the sides of their guns about reading the manual and some others don't.

Here's a link to another thread discussing the issue.

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/2...raction-force/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/9m...mmo/15-718139/

tipoc

December 23, 2016, 12:45 PM	#1
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	No aluminum for HK? Why does HK say in their manual not to use rounds with aluminum casing? From their enclosed manual: "Caution....Use of steel or aluminum-cased cartridges is not recommended and could adversely affect safe and reliable functioning." So no blazer or federal aluminum rounds? __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

December 23, 2016, 12:51 PM	#2
JDBerg Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2015 Location: PA Posts: 1,835	I have shot thousands of rounds of Fed Champion aluminum case 9mm through my HK P30 in the last 2 years, it shoots reliably & accurately though this gun! __________________ Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live

December 23, 2016, 01:11 PM	#3
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	Great to hear. Just trying to understand the reasoning behind their advice. Just liability? __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

December 23, 2016, 01:21 PM	#4
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	I kind of get the "no steel" admonition but fail to see any reason why not to use aluminum cases. I bought a new HK USP40 22 years ago and, out of curiosity after reading HighValleyRanch's post, I checked the manual for this pistol to see if there were any restrictions on ammunition use. Aside from the obligatory warning to not use reloads, there were no other prohibitions. I'd like to hear the reasons for not using ammunition with aluminum cases. It would seem that if HK has good reasons to bar the use of same, the same reason(s) would apply to other semi-auto pistols. Like JDBerg, I've run a ton of cartridges made from aluminum through more than a few auto pistols with no ill effect. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

December 23, 2016, 01:32 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	CYA for 'em. Same reason a lot of companies void their warrantee with the use of handloads. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 23, 2016, 01:34 PM	#6
Maverick36 Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2015 Location: Colorado Posts: 105	Same with my VP9 manual. I ran some Blazer Aluminum and had problems strictly ammo related (was recalled by Speer).Talked to my Buddy at HK and his answer was: liability issues/covering their ass . They are not "designed" for anything but brass although steel and aluminum should not be an issue.They just have to cover it because of the product liability lawyers

December 23, 2016, 02:55 PM	#8
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	I don't get the "CYA" argument to explain the reason for no aluminum. Reloaded ammunition brings its own potential liabilities and I suppose one could argue that steel is hard on extractors but I've never read nor heard where aluminum is less safe or more injurious to steel than brass is. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

December 23, 2016, 04:46 PM	#9
PSP Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2006 Location: Bowling Green Virginia Posts: 4,487	There is the possibility of metal spalling from aluminum cases and over time this may lead to the chamber diameter being reduced. That may lead to problems.

December 23, 2016, 04:56 PM	#10
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	But wouldn't that be true for every other semi auto, and can't that be monitored with good maintenance and cleaning each time after use? Are we to infer that HK has tighter tolerances then? __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

December 23, 2016, 05:54 PM	#11
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	You can infer whatever you want. To me that is HK's way of saying that the pistol was designed to run optimally with brass cased ammunition. Brass is softer and expands better than aluminum or steel. That plays into the ejection and extraction process. I've shot steel and aluminum in HKs before without issues, but the ejection pattern maybe wasn't quite as nice and I've seen the cases not expand fully and more fouling get back into the workings of the pistol. __________________ Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness

December 23, 2016, 07:26 PM	#12
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	I've always wondered whether aluminum casings increase wear. Aluminum metal is soft. However, the oxide layer is almost as hard and abrasive as it gets. But there's not much of it.

December 23, 2016, 07:41 PM	#13
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	It takes a metal of equal or greater hardness to damage a given metal. Aluminum cases aren't even close to the steel in an extractor. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

December 23, 2016, 09:32 PM	#14
GarrettJ Member Join Date: April 13, 2008 Posts: 94	It likely stems from their firearms that had fluted chambers (MP5, P7, etc). Steel and aluminum grab the flutes differently than brass, causing issues. Good reason there. They likely held that over for the non fluted chambers as well, because... Why not?

December 30, 2018, 11:07 AM	#15
epwrangler Member Join Date: August 12, 2008 Posts: 26	My son's new HK would not run with blazer brass but did great with cci aluminum. Both 115gn. Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

December 30, 2018, 12:39 PM	#16
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,635	Just a guess but steel and aluminum cases ammo is usually cheaper and maybe more likely to cause more reliability issues. HK can advise to not use this ammo and therefore avoid customer service issues when problems or reliability issues arise. If you call customer service I'm sure they ask about the ammo used. If you mention steel or aluminum ammo they can just point to the manual and say stop using that ammo and hopefully your problems will disappear.

December 30, 2018, 01:50 PM	#17
sigarms228 Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 2011 Posts: 1,768	HK seems to test their firearms pretty well. I believe they only test with factory fresh brass cased ammo and thus they do not recommend using anything other than brass cased ammo that meets SAAMI specs and if anyone has a problem with "other" ammo including aluminum then don't expect any warranty support or liability coverage from them concerning such. I think that is reasonable. __________________ “When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.” ― Benjamin Franklin

December 30, 2018, 03:47 PM	#18
JDBerg Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2015 Location: PA Posts: 1,835	Interesting how this 2 yr. old thread got resurrected. I need to update my previous posts here by saying that I have shot plenty of (primarily Fed Champion) aluminum cased ammo with my P30 in the past, but not so much of late. I still own this gun, and the slide does not lock back on an empty mag with this ammo. I’ll argue that a semiautomatic does not cycle ammo properly if it doesn’t lock back on an empty mag, but if I’m practicing tactical mag reloads it’s not going to matter anyway. __________________ Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live

January 2, 2019, 01:30 AM	#21
Ignition Override Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2008 Location: About 20 nm from the Big Muddy Posts: 2,887	There are claims by individuals that aluminum-cased 9mm ammo has narrower extraction grooves than with brass ammo. I have no idea, but--- US-made aluminum ammo in the white/blue box caused the first minor malfunctions in my CZ PO-1. It either didn't correctly extract, or possibly didn't eject.

January 3, 2019, 11:32 AM	#22
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Aluminum cases have an increased risk of case separation and of erratic ejection over brass. This is due to galling of the aluminum in the chamber over time. The case expands but has a rougher texture to it than brass cases and so resists extraction to a greater degree. They tend to stick more than brass. It also has a tendency to leave bits of itself in the chamber at times. I've run aluminum cases in some guns without issue but in others problems have developed with extraction. I reserve aluminum cases, mostly, for revolvers. Most folks, I think, discover this on the range and pick their way through it. Meaning we use what works in our guns and don't use what is problematic. Same with steel cases. Companies, large and small, employ CYA to varying degrees. That's why Ruger has billboards on the sides of their guns about reading the manual and some others don't. Here's a link to another thread discussing the issue. https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/2...raction-force/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/9m...mmo/15-718139/ tipoc __________________ 1. All guns are always loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot. 4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.