When an unarmed burglar goes for your gun.... - Page 3

The Tourist · March 4, 2010, 11:11 AM

Cremon, the flaw here is defining 'shooters' as "very few." If something befalls you, the problem is 100%.

And that's my problem. I don't think any fudd here has an issue with what you've said. We've been members of gun clubs and gunshop patrons for decades. We were raised on articles by Ayoob and debates such as this. In my case, we actually know people who were killed.

You remember 'Dirty Harry,' don't you? SW couldn't keep 29s on the shelf. Do you remember a movie called "Wild Hogs"? It's so bad that a slang term called "born again bikers" is floating around.

If we glorify the ideals of "shoot 'em all" enough times we're not going to get a minor statistical blip on shootings. We're going to create a premise where folks pull the trigger in questionable circumstances because "only a few get prosecuted."

Hey, being a mentor is part of the responsibility of earning gray hair. I feel this is right, and I changed my sig line.

spacecoast · March 4, 2010, 11:11 AM

No way I'm going to hole up and yell that we're armed and for him to leave. I have a daughter at the other end of the house, so my wife gets the BUG and I go out to try and eradicate the vermin who has invaded our space. He has maybe one verbal warning/chance to live, and will survive only if he does exactly as ordered. I would hate to kill anyone but will do it if necessary.

Intruder rule #1 is just like gun safety rule #1 - they are ARMED until proven otherwise.

Tourist, you are living a fantasy if you think ADT provides any real protection or help in a situation. If they're even aware (and many alarms won't sound unless the window frame is moved), they're only going to call the cops to help clean up the mess, whether or not that mess is me or the BG is between him and me.

The Tourist · March 4, 2010, 11:12 AM

I'm not living in a fantasy. I buried a friend.

spacecoast · March 4, 2010, 11:14 AM

Therefore your opinion is highly subjective/emotional, my condolences.

Cremon · March 4, 2010, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacecoast

Therefore your opinion is highly subjective/emotional, my condolences.

Agreed.

The Tourist, I respectfully must completely disagree with you. And wholeheartedly so.

If someone breaks into my home, I'll shoot them and risk going to jail. When weighing the slim risk of dying against the slim risk of going to jail (all things being equal) I am with pax - jail wins for me every time for me - sorry. I don't think having had to say good bye to a good friend changes things in this kind of debate. I have lost plenty of friends in my life and I still think the way I do for defensive situations in my home.

It's not just me I am thinking about - its my family. I have a wife and 3 children in my house. I will not negotiate with an intruder in my home.

And if I HAVE to go to jail so that my wife or one of my kids won't run the risk of being killed, I'll do it tonight.

45Gunner · March 4, 2010, 11:22 AM

Another consideration, especially where people are concerned about the legal ramifications, i.e. legal fees, and consumption of time involved in defending your decision: I am most fortunate to reside in a State (Florida) that has a Castle Doctrine. If someone is in my house, I do not have to find an escape route and give him free rein to completely pillage and destroy, steal, or otherwise turn my world upside down.

For the younger crowd, you have grown up with what goes on today. For us more senior people, there was a time when one could leave the front door open and unlocked and not have to worry about someone coming to rip you off. Cars could be left parked with the windows open. Kids could play in the streets even after the sun went down. Somewhere along the way the world changed. It became a nasty place where you can trust next to no one. Certain factions are drug-crazed maniacs that want what you have and they want it now, and will do anything to get it. I, myself, have been a victim of a home invasion robbery which caused me to be shot and left for dead. I survived and vowed never to let that happen again. My view may be tainted but if someone is in my house, the sign I have posted by the door will apply:
"If you are found here at night, you will be found here in the morning."

Now, ask me if I give a damn about the legal ramifications? Consider how much time I spent in the hospital recovering from multiple gunshot wounds, how much time I spent looking at mug shots, talking with detectives, going over the same thing time and time again, how much time I lost from work, and most importantly; how much time I lost from living. I won't even mention the change in my persona and psychological trauma that was caused. To think that I survived a year in Vietnam only to get shot in my own house was, at one time, unthinkable.

Put yourself in my shoes, knowing what I know, and ask yourself; If I find someone in my house at night, what am I going to do? If you don't answer, I will shoot him upon finding him, then you really need to sell your guns, build yourself a safe room, and hope the police will arrive before you're killed.

Cremon · March 4, 2010, 11:28 AM

In Tourist's defense, he lives in Wisconsin, which not only does not have the Castle Doctrine, but does not issue CCW permits (only one of two states that don't - the other is Illinois). So I do understand where you are coming from, Sir. I just don't feel it applies to ME since I live in a Castle Doctrine state.

I can't say what I would do if I lived in Wisconsin unless I actually lived there.

The Tourist · March 4, 2010, 11:33 AM

Hey, guys, I'm not criticizing the debate, I think a look at the issues on any topic is a good thing. The problem is with these scenarios.

Have you heard the concept of "turn -about"?

I just mentioned one death. To that end, I am now "too emotional." How would you like it if the reverse happened?

Here's a scenario. I think this is a good, well run forum. So I invite all of my friends. Gray beards. Fudds. Guys who've actually been in fights. Guys who've heard it all.

So from that moment, every time some guy opines to "kill them all," twenty guys jump on him as a poser, a newb, or a guy who watches too much TV.

And that's the problem with these scenarios. Not all of the homeowners get a free ride. Many of them will be hurt or killed. A large number of them will go through the sausage machine we call "the legal system." And more than a few of them will suffer from PTSD no matter how much they boast now.

I don't consider myself too emotional, I consider you unschooled.

Edit: Cremon, the State of Wisconsin does recognize self defense , but thanks for your support.

Glenn E. Meyer · March 4, 2010, 11:48 AM

Let's cool this down.

Closed

March 4, 2010, 11:22 AM	#56
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	Another consideration, especially where people are concerned about the legal ramifications, i.e. legal fees, and consumption of time involved in defending your decision: I am most fortunate to reside in a State (Florida) that has a Castle Doctrine. If someone is in my house, I do not have to find an escape route and give him free rein to completely pillage and destroy, steal, or otherwise turn my world upside down. For the younger crowd, you have grown up with what goes on today. For us more senior people, there was a time when one could leave the front door open and unlocked and not have to worry about someone coming to rip you off. Cars could be left parked with the windows open. Kids could play in the streets even after the sun went down. Somewhere along the way the world changed. It became a nasty place where you can trust next to no one. Certain factions are drug-crazed maniacs that want what you have and they want it now, and will do anything to get it. I, myself, have been a victim of a home invasion robbery which caused me to be shot and left for dead. I survived and vowed never to let that happen again. My view may be tainted but if someone is in my house, the sign I have posted by the door will apply: "If you are found here at night, you will be found here in the morning." Now, ask me if I give a damn about the legal ramifications? Consider how much time I spent in the hospital recovering from multiple gunshot wounds, how much time I spent looking at mug shots, talking with detectives, going over the same thing time and time again, how much time I lost from work, and most importantly; how much time I lost from living. I won't even mention the change in my persona and psychological trauma that was caused. To think that I survived a year in Vietnam only to get shot in my own house was, at one time, unthinkable. Put yourself in my shoes, knowing what I know, and ask yourself; If I find someone in my house at night, what am I going to do? If you don't answer, I will shoot him upon finding him, then you really need to sell your guns, build yourself a safe room, and hope the police will arrive before you're killed. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member

March 4, 2010, 11:28 AM	#57
Cremon Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Location: Marietta, GA Posts: 307	In Tourist's defense, he lives in Wisconsin, which not only does not have the Castle Doctrine, but does not issue CCW permits (only one of two states that don't - the other is Illinois). So I do understand where you are coming from, Sir. I just don't feel it applies to ME since I live in a Castle Doctrine state. I can't say what I would do if I lived in Wisconsin unless I actually lived there. __________________ If guns were outlawed, then only outlaws would have guns.

March 4, 2010, 11:48 AM	#59
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Let's cool this down. Closed __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 4, 2010, 11:11 AM	#51
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	Cremon, the flaw here is defining 'shooters' as "very few." If something befalls you, the problem is 100%. And that's my problem. I don't think any fudd here has an issue with what you've said. We've been members of gun clubs and gunshop patrons for decades. We were raised on articles by Ayoob and debates such as this. In my case, we actually know people who were killed. You remember 'Dirty Harry,' don't you? SW couldn't keep 29s on the shelf. Do you remember a movie called "Wild Hogs"? It's so bad that a slang term called "born again bikers" is floating around. If we glorify the ideals of "shoot 'em all" enough times we're not going to get a minor statistical blip on shootings. We're going to create a premise where folks pull the trigger in questionable circumstances because "only a few get prosecuted." Hey, being a mentor is part of the responsibility of earning gray hair. I feel this is right, and I changed my sig line.

March 4, 2010, 11:11 AM	#52
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	No way I'm going to hole up and yell that we're armed and for him to leave. I have a daughter at the other end of the house, so my wife gets the BUG and I go out to try and eradicate the vermin who has invaded our space. He has maybe one verbal warning/chance to live, and will survive only if he does exactly as ordered. I would hate to kill anyone but will do it if necessary. Intruder rule #1 is just like gun safety rule #1 - they are ARMED until proven otherwise. Tourist, you are living a fantasy if you think ADT provides any real protection or help in a situation. If they're even aware (and many alarms won't sound unless the window frame is moved), they're only going to call the cops to help clean up the mess, whether or not that mess is me or the BG is between him and me.

March 4, 2010, 11:12 AM	#53
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	I'm not living in a fantasy. I buried a friend.

March 4, 2010, 11:14 AM	#54
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	Therefore your opinion is highly subjective/emotional, my condolences.

March 4, 2010, 11:33 AM	#58
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	Hey, guys, I'm not criticizing the debate, I think a look at the issues on any topic is a good thing. The problem is with these scenarios. Have you heard the concept of "turn -about"? I just mentioned one death. To that end, I am now "too emotional." How would you like it if the *reverse* happened? Here's a scenario. I think this is a good, well run forum. So I invite all of my friends. Gray beards. Fudds. Guys who've actually been in fights. Guys who've heard it all. So from that moment, every time some guy opines to "kill them all," twenty guys jump on him as a poser, a newb, or a guy who watches too much TV. And that's the problem with these scenarios. Not all of the homeowners get a free ride. Many of them will be hurt or killed. A large number of them will go through the sausage machine we call "the legal system." And more than a few of them will suffer from PTSD no matter how much they boast now. I don't consider myself too emotional, I consider you unschooled. Edit: Cremon, the State of Wisconsin does recognize self defense , but thanks for your support.