AR or 1911 For HD

[Double Naught Spy]

Try advancing out of your bedroom with that m4gery sometime and see how easily maneuvered it is.

Well, my M4gery is smaller than my HD shotgun and I practice with both in tight quarters.

[leadcounsel]

Wow - some of the advice here is just absolutely terrible!!! :barf:

Disregard this:

Have any of you even shot someone with a .223 or 5.56 round? Seriously? Think about it, its a .22 round moving at like 3200 to 3800 FPS. It is quite possibly the worst HD weapon you could think of getting. Aside from the liberator...maybe... That hot little round is going to go THROUGH things. LOTS of things. WITHOUT doing much damage. If you're not worried about shooting up your house, a short barreled shotgun (IE mossburg 500) is a great HD weapon. Or some kind of revolver, so you don't have to worry about jams due to spring compression, whether or not one's in the chamber etc. IF you insist on a semi-auto, and you're just using it for home defense, think big, think slow, think MAXIMUM expansion. I don't want to get shot just because you're getting robbed.
A gun is just a TOOL. Its not going to make anyone deader because it looks cool. Like any TOOL you need to match it with the application. An ASSAULT rifle isn't a defensive weapon...an uzi is though. But that Bushmaster 5 million with every tricked out sight and handy-dandy laser doodad isn't going to do you a lick of good close quarters or around turns. And they're very, very loud. Think about getting a can (silencer) permit. They're expensive but it saves on hearing aids. (surefire makes them, they screw on where the flash suppressor goes) Now if you want the AR to be cool or whatever, get it. There's a good tag on here, a man's gun is like his nose, no one should pick it for him. Now if you want the AR to be cool or whatever, get it. Just think before you decide on that being your HD weapon.

And disregard this:

You know why the military uses them? Cause its friggen CHEAP. Its ammo is CHEAPER than 7.62, its also easier on all those light-weight POG's and REMF's to learn how to shoot and not be afraid of the recoil and muzzle blast.

And disregard this nonsense:

Along those same lines, it's going to look bad to a jury when you have to explain why you thought you needed 30 rounds for HD and wanted to be able to engage them at 400yds.

Please site a single case where this came into play.

Cons:
-Low stopping power

If memory serves, most of the people shot by a Bushmaster 5.56 rifle by the Beltway shooter died or had catastrophic injuries. The 5.56 is a very good round. Are there better. Yes. But getting shot by a 5.56 would ruin your life, no doubt about it. But the same could be said for the .45. Both are effective.

If you can break the AR15 stock, you're doing things to it that it was never intended to do!

[AcridSaint]

Clint Smith advocates using a one-piece stock on your HD AR so that you can smash "things" with it. If you ever look around the AR forums you'll see folks selling "retro" gear. Those old A1 stocks made it through Vietnam and then another 40 years of military and civilian "use". I am also in the camp that you will have an exceptionally difficult time breaking an AR stock in a HD situation.

[semi_problomatic]

Alrighty, to all you brain-buckets and AR lovers, I didn't have the time before, but now:

For the genius who said use critter grenades: The criteria for rifle ammunition is essentially the same as for handgun bullets, and many of the same design factors apply. One important difference for rifle ammunition is that the velocities are much higher, and the effect of the temporary cavity starts contributing quite a bit towards creating damage, especially as one moves up in caliber/velocity. There are expanding rifle bullets which will do the job just like for handguns, as well as fragmenting bullets. As previously discussed, the heavier bullets perform better here also. If a bullet fragments, there should be sufficient mass in the largest fragments to ensure penetration to the 12" level for optimum performance. This disqualifies many varmint bullets; while they show dramatic fragmentation, the fragments sometimes penetrate to only 6" or so. This creates impressive surface wounds, but may not penetrate deeply enough

And penetration: The bullets go through this yaw process on the way to becoming stable, and can yaw by as much as 4 degrees at short distances. You can see in the graph above that the bullet becomes very stable from about 100-400 meters, but the greatest variability - unfortunately - is within CQB range. The angle of attack has a profound impact on how a bullet behaves when striking tissue.

for more on that :http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...index.htm#.223

and : This wounding problem has been cited in incidents beginning in the first Gulf war, Somalia, and ending in the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. In recent lab testing of M855, it has been shown that the bullets do not fragment reliably or consistently from round-to-round, displaying widely variable performance. In several cases, yawing did not begin until 7"-10" of penetration. This was with all rounds coming from the same manufacturer.[10] This lack of wounding capacity typically becomes an increasingly significant issue as range decreases (e.g., ranges under 45m when using an M4 or 140m when using an M16 w/ a 20" barrel) or when penetrating heavy clothing, but this problem is compounded in shorter-barreled weapons. The 14.5-inch (37 cm) barrel of the U.S. military's M4 carbine generates considerably less initial velocity than its big brother, the 20" barreled M16 and terminal performance can be a particular problem with the M4.


Further more, on the history of 5.56: To the Army, the cost of ammunition per round is important. While not significant in small numbers, it becomes apparent when you look at the big picture. One must include the cost of developing and maintaining proficiency with individual weapons. The 5.56mm gives the taxpayer more bangs for the buck.

Unfortunately, by 1960, as I have recounted in "Who's at fault for the m16", the AOBs credibility was shot with the defense department. Fomr 1960-1964, the AOD was ordered by the DOD to test various lightweight automatic rifle concepts in smaller calibers.

The AOB deliberately dragged their feet on tehse tests; and in many ways pout their thumbs on the scales. They eventually legitimately concluded, that the proper choice for a replacement for the 7.62 nato was a 6.5mm cartridge, firing a 100-120gr bullet at approximately 3,000fps; but by then, it was too late. They had wasted all their credibility and good will sabotaging the .223 and the AR15; and the defense department ordered them to adopt both, unchanged, immediately.

This was a disaster; because as regards what became the 5.56 nato, they were correct. The round wasn't a suitable replacement for the 7.2 nato. It had been denegrated as a varmint round, not even big enough to hunt deer with in msot states, and they were right.

we adopted the 5.56 with a flawed wounding model, but in fact McNamara and the DOD didn't care about the wounding model at all. What they were concerned about was that the 5.56 was light, and cheap. A soldier could carry 2.55 times as much 5.56 as 7.62 nato, but they cost the same.

By 1968, the U.S. had already gathered enough data to know that the 5.56 wasn't working as advertised. In fact, starting in 1974, we began looking for a replacement. We've been looking every few years ever since.

more on that : http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2007...hoose-556.html

Also, 5.56 and .223 arn't the same, and .223 rounds in a semi-automatic rifle made for 5.56 could misfeed and jam due to not having enough pressure to fully kick the bolt back.

Now unless you're living in a movie star's mansion, or on a far and shooting coyotes as well, you're not going to be shooting further than 25-30 FEET at very most. Thats you rich folks living in them big houses. Thats 10 or less yards. Accuracy really shouldn't be a problem so much as weapon control.

There is also weapon placement. IE where is your home defense weapon? A lot of good it'll do you in your safe in another room, downstairs, or just in a safe in your closet. Locked and unloaded.

IMHO your home defense weapon is best kept loaded and close at hand, as the army teaches, within arms reach.

[Double Naught Spy]

Also, 5.56 and .223 arn't the same, and .223 rounds in a semi-automatic rifle made for 5.56 could misfeed and jam due to not having enough pressure to fully kick the bolt back.

While 5.56 and .223 are not the same, I have yet to see a gun misfeed because it was made for 5.56 and was shooting .223.

[JohnKSa]

Originally Posted by semi_problomatic

Oh yeah, its illegal for civilians to own 30rnd mags.

Incorrect. In most parts of the U.S. 30rnd mags are legal to own.

Originally Posted by semi_problomatic

READ along those 30 round mags. its printed VERY clearly on the side "RESTRICTED LAW ENFORCEMENT/GOVERNMENT USE ONLY" I know, I'm holding one in my lap now.

That stamping is left over from a now-defunct law. There are some regions where similar laws still appy, but that stamping means nothing in the vast majority of the U.S.

Originally Posted by semi_problomatic

Think about it, its a .22 round moving at like 3200 to 3800 FPS.

From the carbine length guns most popular these days the velocity is much lower, however even from the 20" bbl of the M16A2, 3800fps is way high. The only way you're going to get those velocities is with a varmint loading for .223 out of a much longer barrel length than is found in a typical self-defense type rifle.

Originally Posted by semi_problomatic

If a bullet fragments, there should be sufficient mass in the largest fragments to ensure penetration to the 12" level for optimum performance. This disqualifies many varmint bullets;

May I remind you that you were the one who started quoting velocity figures from varmint loadings of the .223 as evidence that it was going to penetrate too deeply?

Originally Posted by semi_problomatic

It is quite possibly the worst HD weapon you could think of getting. ... That hot little round is going to go THROUGH things. LOTS of things. WITHOUT doing much damage.

Testing indicates that typical .223 self-defense loadings penetrate about the same or less than popular self-defense handgun loadings.

Originally Posted by semi_problomatic

Also, 5.56 and .223 arn't the same, and .223 rounds in a semi-automatic rifle made for 5.56 could misfeed and jam due to not having enough pressure to fully kick the bolt back.

This is absolutely incorrect. The differences in the .223 and the 5.56 are not significant enough to cause malfunctions due to the lower pressure of the .223. There are some differences, but there are NO issues in shooting .223 ammunition in 5.56 firearms. In some cases there may be issues in shooting 5.56 in .223 firearms.

Originally Posted by semi_problomatic

Now unless you're living in a movie star's mansion, or on a far and shooting coyotes as well, you're not going to be shooting further than 25-30 FEET at very most. Thats you rich folks living in them big houses. Thats 10 or less yards. Accuracy really shouldn't be a problem so much as weapon control.

Shooting long guns accurately is much easier than shooting pistols accurately. The issue isn't wanting to shoot tight groups at close range, the issue is wanting to hit the target at close range under very stressing circumstances. Any advantage is important. I've seen LOTS of folks miss human sized targets at 10 yards or less at the range with pistols, but folks generally do much better with long guns.

Originally Posted by semi_problomatic

By 1968, the U.S. had already gathered enough data to know that the 5.56 wasn't working as advertised.

I'd like to see some of that data. In 1968 the 5.56 was working so well that Russia decided to copy it based on what they were seeing. By 1974 they had come out with their own version which they are still using.

[BlackFeather]

For the original question, it's not about the gun, it's about who is using it and how. Judging from your name I would say get the AR and try it out to see whether it fits you if you already have a handgun. You may find that the more comfortable gun is better in all aspects due to your ability to use it.

It isn't about the gun, it's about how YOU use it.

[MTT TL]

Dude you have issues. You should have taken the advice to do more research. Rather than rehash your previously discredited post we will jump into the most current one:

The criteria for rifle ammunition is essentially the same as for handgun bullets

Sometimes. Most rifle ammunition has to account for the different pressures. Different powders, primers and bullets are used.

One important difference for rifle ammunition is that the velocities are much higher, and the effect of the temporary cavity starts contributing quite a bit towards creating damage, especially as one moves up in caliber/velocity.

Not always. For example the difference between .30-06 FMJ and 5.56 FMJ is actually quite small so far cavitation is concerned. Bullet design plays a much larger role in the cavity than velocity.

There are expanding rifle bullets which will do the job just like for handguns, as well as fragmenting bullets. As previously discussed, the heavier bullets perform better here also.

Well, again not necessarily. A 230 gr .45 JHP will not perform as well as 150 gr .308 power point. Although they both should get the job done. Here velocity will play a role. And bullet design.

In recent lab testing of M855, it has been shown that the bullets do not fragment reliably or consistently from round-to-round, displaying widely variable performance.

Yes this of one of the reasons the military is getting rid of it. That and the change to the M4. Still plenty of good choices out there for rounds. If by recent you mean 12 years ago, then yes recent.

Further more, on the history of 5.56: To the Army, the cost of ammunition per round is important. While not significant in small numbers, it becomes apparent when you look at the big picture. One must include the cost of developing and maintaining proficiency with individual weapons. The 5.56mm gives the taxpayer more bangs for the buck.

You are looking at the wrong reason the Army adopted the 5.56. Primary concern was logistics not cost. A man could carry twice as 5.56 as 7.62. So could trucks, planes, parachutes and boats.

This was a disaster; because as regards what became the 5.56 nato, they were correct. The round wasn't a suitable replacement for the 7.2 nato. It had been denegrated as a varmint round, not even big enough to hunt deer with in msot states, and they were right.

I don't know how that could be. The Army adopted in 1963 and it was not released commercially until 1964. So far as disaster, the army has used the AR longer than any other weapon in it's history. To great success I might add. And what is the 7.2 Nato? Never heard of it.

we adopted the 5.56 with a flawed wounding model, but in fact McNamara and the DOD didn't care about the wounding model at all. What they were concerned about was that the 5.56 was light, and cheap. A soldier could carry 2.55 times as much 5.56 as 7.62 nato, but they cost the same.

They did not cost the same. You are also overlooking this important benefit of having a lot of ammo. Having twice as much as ammo as the enemy is no small advantage.

Also, 5.56 and .223 arn't the same, and .223 rounds in a semi-automatic rifle made for 5.56 could misfeed and jam due to not having enough pressure to fully kick the bolt back.

As pointed out this is just plain nutty.

Now unless you're living in a movie star's mansion, or on a far and shooting coyotes as well, you're not going to be shooting further than 25-30 FEET at very most. Thats you rich folks living in them big houses. Thats 10 or less yards. Accuracy really shouldn't be a problem so much as weapon control.

I don't even know what this means. As a field grade officer I am not rich, yet the longest point in my house is about 60 feet. Why would I be shooting coyotes from a far? afar? a farm?

There is also weapon placement. IE where is your home defense weapon? A lot of good it'll do you in your safe in another room, downstairs, or just in a safe in your closet. Locked and unloaded.

Why would your HD weapon be locked up and unloaded? This makes no sense.

IMHO your home defense weapon is best kept loaded and close at hand, as the army teaches, within arms reach.

Well at least we agree on this... I think....

It is quite possibly the worst HD weapon you could think of getting. ... That hot little round is going to go THROUGH things. LOTS of things. WITHOUT doing much damage.

If it goes through lots of things without doing damage than it would be ideal for shooting in a china shop, I think.

[guntotin_fool]

Without digressing to the level of the pseudo scholarly replies that seem to be flying about, Lets go back to the OP's first need. Home Defense. He does not need a battle rifle nor does he need a relatively complicated 1911, (folks, I live and breath 1911's so don't jump here) he needs a bang stick. He needs something simple to learn, something easy for him to control, and something cheap enough for him on a limited budget to get enough practice with so that he is comfortable with it.

That really leaves only two options, a revolver or a shotgun. I vote for the 870 combo pack with the Smooth bore deer barrel and the 28 inch remchoke barrel .

He buys this, he goes out to the local trap, skeet, or sporting clays range, explains he is an utter novice and would some one teach him, He will have ten offers by the time he gets his hat off. Sporting clays would be my recommendation. shoot 3 or 4 rounds of sporting clays over a couple of weekends.

At this point, this OP can now load, function, and aim his shotgun moderately well, the controls are beginning to be rote, and he has seen the power of the weapon. At this point he goes to wally world and purchases a few sticks of number 4 buck. He loads the shotgun tube and is now able to sleep better knowing he has a devastating weapon that will render most if not all invading parties a world of hurt.

As far as range and anti body armor, this is really moot. if you are defending a common american house, in a neighborhood or at least not a montana ranch house with no neighbors that can be seen, you are looking at defending against punks on meth or crack trying to get in and get goods to sell. Certainly, there are other reasons for home defense, but in our land, the vast vast majority of break ins are drug related, or domestic abuse stuff. in both of those cases, the presence of body armor is going tobe nil. If you live in Compton or Harlem or something like that with drug houses on all sides, then a rip off might be a possibility, and if its organized, its hard to stop. But in the US you are probably more likely to win the Powerball than be up against that kind of threat.

Remember you are defending, and as long as you fit the parameters we are talking about, sitting still holding a 12 guage and waiting for those sirens to get closer is what your job is.

Above answers might change enormously if you do not live in a standard american city town. if you live in the boonies, with a 4 mile driveway, looking at something with more punch might be your second option, after you have secured the homestead with a shotgun.

A side benefit of this, is that because he has now found sporting clays somewhat fun, he continues getting fairly reallistic shooting training and experience while having fun.



AR's have their place, So do 1911's, but for bedside protection, the 12 gauge reigns supreme.

Then after the OP gets pretty good with 12 gauge, he buys a 1911 with a .22 top end and a regular top end. he gets some real pratice, some real experience, then he takes the class and gets his Permit to carry or what ever his state issues.

[publius]

semi-problomatic. I don't even know where to start tearing apart your misinformation and grammatical errors. Whew!

[KLRANGL]

I think guntotin_fool has a good point. Its easy to forget that we know more, or have more experience than, most people asking for advice on this forum. A 1911 or a M4 may be a better choice for some, but it takes more work to get proficient there than with just a simple shotgun.

Now this is not to say the OP is totally inexperienced. But the rule of thumb is use what you know. For me, its a handgun. For my roommate, its a shotgun.
All else being equal, a shotgun will probably be the most cost effective and easiest to learn... There is also an argument to be said for it being more effective overall as well...
But from my perspective (and opinion), keep things simple and use your carry gun (if you start to carry) for HD as well. This means that (again, my opinion) if you start to carry a 1911, you should use it for HD as well...

[teeroux]

Oh yeah, its illegal for civilians to own 30rnd mags. thats why it says for military or police use only on them.

Jeez I hate misinformatin like that I have even had to edjumacate other deputies on this same topic. (facepalm)

Know the law just cause there is a sign or writing doesn't make it so. Case in point.

Everyone who reads this must pay a royalty of $100 for doing so to teeroux.

Just send me a message when you read it and I will work on getting you set up with a transfer to my offshore account.

K Rant over I say go with the 1911 first then get a long gun. You get a weapon for home defense and carry. Stuff goes down away from the house too.

[BlackFeather]

Originally Posted by KLRANGL

For me, its a handgun. For my roommate, its a shotgun.

Dear Buddha I hope you have a good plan going as to not shoot each other.

I am sure you do but that's what came to mind first.

[KChen986]

My TL;DR (Too Long, Didn't Read whole thread) advice:

AR. Easier to shoot accurately, higher mag capacity. Wouldn't feel underarmed with a 1911 though.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You know semi_problomatic, simply cutting and pasting paragraphs from various websites doesn't give people the impression that YOU know what you are talking about if you don't organize them in any coherent or rational manner.

From your writing, I can't even figure out what point you were trying to make. Logically, it would seem you are trying to defend your earlier comments; but much of the information you cut & pasted contradicts your earlier statements, or doesn't have any logical relationship to it at all in some cases.

You posted quite a bit regarding the use of military FMJ in military weapons; but since this thread was discussing home defense, the original poster is not limited to FMJ. He can choose from a wide array of options that are better than FMJ. So I am not sure what that was about unless you somehow confused "this particular 5.56 round is bad in certain scenarios" with "all 5.56 ammunition is bad and no good for anything."

[Hard Ball]

It really depends on your indivdual situatiom.

[BlueTrain]

For those involved in the AR-15 discussion, the first AR-15s were produced in .222. But the army wanted something more powerful!

[N.H. Yankee]

1911's helped clear many trench's in multiple wars, and was effective even with ball ammo. I don't know what happened between then and now, but I am more than comfy with a 1911. You will be a prosecutors dream come true if you light someone up with an AR, one of those murdering assault weapons is what your choice of weapons may very well be described as.

Sadly we do not have the choice of weapons in the eyes of some of those who claim to enforce the law and protect our rights. A shotgun is also a good choice but even then an aggressive career minded prosecutor may try to accuse you of overkill, but you have a lot better ground to stand on than an AR. If you live in an area where you feel you need that much firepower, its time to MOVE!

[Willie Lowman]

I would like to thank everyone who has posted in this thread. I have had lots of laughs.

SSSSSOOOOooooooooo much bad information.

Hey OP, do yourself a favor and disregard just about everything you have read here. While folks like MTT and Teeroux corrected some of it, I still had to put on my boots to wade through all the BS in this thread.

Thanks guys!

[KLRANGL]

Dear Buddha I hope you have a good plan going as to not shoot each other.

I am sure you do but that's what came to mind first.

Haha, yeah no worries there... And we have paper thin walls too

[BlueTrain]

To answer what happened since the .45 auto with ball ammo (full patch, as they used to say) was a good choice, I'd say our expectations have changed. Among other things, you used to be expected to shoot a .45 auto one-handed!

[KChen986]

I hope I don't derail the thread, but in this shooting video (WARNING: GRAPHIC), you see how the M1 carbine's superior accuracy and magazine capacity decisively won the fight. The officer in the video shoots the offender once in the stomach with (IIRC) a .40 S&W round [when he clutches his stomach], but fails to stop the perp.

Arguably, it may be that the winner didn't prevail due to the rifle but because he had infantry training. And I might just be talking out my ass. But I found this video illustrated how a long arm is superior to a pistol. Finally, this whole video may be completely inapplicable since we're discussing HD scenarios, not shoot outs.

(AGAIN, WARNING: GRAPHIC AND SOMEWHAT DISTURBING)

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...hooting/#video

[azredhawk44]

Arguably, it may be that the winner didn't prevail due to the rifle but because he had infantry training.

There's a whole host of reasons why that officer died in that engagement, and the gun selection is probably the smallest contributor out of all of them.

OP, it is not something you should use in your evaluation of a home defense firearm...

... You should, however, use it as dramatic encouragement to get proper, effective training with your chosen platform.

[jg0001]

There's no good reason not to buy a nice set of 10-round 45ACP magazines for your 1911. Sure, they aren't flush, but the one's listed below still look just fine to me -- and I like having the extra few shots.

Chip McCormick Power Mag Plus --
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=178343

[Double Naught Spy]

But they aren't reliable in many folks' guns. I don't know of anyone who has a 10 round CMC or Wilson .45 acp 1911 magazine that is consistently reliable. What you often end up with are 9+1 with a fail to feed on the 11th (last of the mag) round. So you do get 10 rounds, if topped off, maybe 11. The last one tends to be iffy.