Factory Ammo Question

Blue · July 5, 2009, 11:09 PM

Is there somewhere you can look up the details of the load for factory cartridges?

Example: Winchester White Box / 45ACP / 230 gr FMJ /Target/ Range.

Would be interested in knowing what powder they use and how much. Also, what primer used.

I have questions about some others, as well, and would like to find a place to look up the details.

Thanks,

**Mike Irwin** · July 5, 2009, 11:58 PM

They use powders that are similar to the powders that we can buy, but they are not available on the open market.

Powders for reloading are known as canister powders. They are blends of powders from different lots, the intention being to achieve and maintain a certain performance level over a period of many years and many, many lots.

The powders used in factory ammo normally come from a single, unblended lot, with charge specifics being adjusted to the ballistics the company wants for that particular ammunition.

mrawesome22 · July 6, 2009, 12:16 AM

Just use the same bullet and get a chronograph. Get to the same speed and you will basically have the same ammo as the factory stuff for handguns. It'll be every bit as good but usually better and you can show your buddies that you are smarter than them. LOL

Sevens · July 6, 2009, 12:43 AM

Mike Irwin gave you the scoop, but to dig a little deeper in to it...

If you bought a box of WWB in 2005 and a box of WWB in 2009 and yanked both bullets, there's a good chance you'd find different powders in them. The blends change over time, and as he said, they simply load to a particular pressure range.

There truly is no source data for ANYBODY'S factory ammo. Best you can do from a few companies are when they advertise or publish their velocities.

And as Mr. A said, you can also shoot them through your own chrono, then find a similar bullet and try to replicate what they've done. If it's a potent, expensive defense round, chances are that you can't completely replicate it because you don't have access to the powders they use and the equipment they have at their disposal.

mrawesome22 · July 6, 2009, 12:57 AM

And usually the box will tell you what bullet you are using. I can look at a bullet and tell you what it is. Unless it's an over sees bullet. But if it's a foreign bullet, it's probably a FMJ not worth a damn. WWB are bad about that. I reload for accuracy and reliabity however. I don't think you can buy hydrashock bullets as a component also. Oh well. I never have liked Federal ammo. The Feds.

**Mike Irwin** · July 6, 2009, 08:43 AM

"If you bought a box of WWB in 2005 and a box of WWB in 2009 and yanked both bullets, there's a good chance you'd find different powders in them."

Actually, you'd very likely find the exact same powder, just different lots.

To the best of my knowledge, Winchester is still loading almost all of it's .45 ammo, as well as its 9, .380, and others, with the industrial equivalent of WW 231.

freakshow10mm · July 6, 2009, 08:59 AM

Winchester ammunition uses Winchester powder and primers. 231 and WSF are popular in pistol loads. They use the same stuff that they sell us. Their higher end personal defense stuff like the Ranger line is most likely non-canister powder. I'll run out to the shop and pull a round.

freakshow10mm · July 6, 2009, 09:08 AM

6.1gr of a ball powder from the 115gr Ranger load. Notice two different grain sizes. Most likely a blend as there is nothing in the manuals or industry notes I have for 6.1gr of powder.

Best closeup I could get.

**Mike Irwin** · July 6, 2009, 10:05 AM

The flattened nature of some ball powders is done in a manufacturing step to adjust burning rates.

Factory lots are often blended to finess burning rates and get performance desired characteristics.

"They use the same stuff that they sell us."

Yes, they use the same stuff they sell us, but NOT canister powders. The basic chemical formula is the same, but you couldn't walk into the Winchester plant, to any of their production lines, and pull powder out of the machines that are usable with the reloading infomation we have available to us. The companies load with non-canister powders.

An attempt to use a non-canister powder with the information from any of the loading manuals that are out there could result in a very nasty surprise.

**Unclenick** · July 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrawesome

. . . Just use the same bullet and get a chronograph. Get to the same speed and you will basically have the same ammo as the factory stuff for handguns. . .

Actually, if you read your chronograph instructions they will specifically warn you not to do this. There are two reasons. First is that if you try to match the factory load velocity with a lot of powder that is faster burning than the factory powder, it will not get to the same velocity before peak pressure becomes higher. This can also happen if you don't use the same primers and cases. Second, some folks will be trying to match the factory listed velocities rather than their own measurements for that ammo from their own gun. Unless your gun's chamber and barrel length and dimensions are exactly the same as the test barrel's, you won't get factory listed velocities without exceeding their powder charges, which may, again involve getting to excessive pressures.

mrawesome22 · July 6, 2009, 10:40 AM

Right Nick. Never exceed max loads in the book. Choose the right powder. And watch for excessive pressure. I had a ball working up some 454Casull rounds to match the factory Hornady stuff. 240gr XTP MAG smoking out at 2000fps out of a 7.5" barrelled Ruger Super Redhawk

You really gotta hold on when those babies light off! LOL

freakshow10mm · July 6, 2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Yes, they use the same stuff they sell us, but NOT canister powders. The basic chemical formula is the same, but you couldn't walk into the Winchester plant, to any of their production lines, and pull powder out of the machines that are usable with the reloading infomation we have available to us. The companies load with non-canister powders.

Um, not really. The powders that Winchester uses is the same exact powder you buy at retail. They just package it in retail packaging. I've spoken at length with the Winchester technicians that have confirmed this.

Blue · July 6, 2009, 10:37 PM

Thanks for all the info. I was just wondering about the factory ammo some because in many cases it performs a lot differently than my reloads. In 45acp, for example, I am getting more recoil and often more flash with the factory loads than with my own and yet - at 850-900 fps (book values) mine seem to shoot more predictable groups and with less recoil and flash. Just an observation and illustrates at least part of the reason for asking the question in the first place. I'm saving up for a chrono and think I will pull a few bullets from some factory ammo and see if I can learn anything by weighing the charge and comparing relative case volume. Might be able to visually describe the powder as it relates to what I am using now. Just curious, mostly.
I appreciate all the responses.

rc · July 6, 2009, 11:38 PM

Use one of your favorite factory rounds and bullet with similar profile to set the crimp and OAL for your reloading dies. This is a trouble free way to set your dies. Simply take the seater plug out, screw in your die until it's snug with the factory round all the way up on the ram. Then lock it down to set crimp. Then screw un the seater plug and lock it down. Works great for having the same outside specs as your factory ammo for feed reliability. I would suggest W231 and Winchester LP primer. As others have stated load to a velocity target and you are done. Make sure you don't go over max in your load recipe and you'll be just fine. rc

**Mike Irwin** · July 7, 2009, 12:19 AM

"Um, not really. The powders that Winchester uses is the same exact powder you buy at retail. They just package it in retail packaging. I've spoken at length with the Winchester technicians that have confirmed this."

This this is a SIGNIFICANT change from how Winchester conducted operations just a few years ago and when I was with American Rifleman magazine back in the 1990s.

Non-canister powders such as WW 230 and WW 295 were used to load ammunition. The canister versions, available retail to handloaders, were WW 231 and WW 296.

Other powers had similar, but different, names.

I suspect, however, that you're only getting part of the story. While 230 and 231 ARE the exact same powders in chemical composition, they're not blended the exact same way, nor are they interchangeable.

freakshow10mm · July 7, 2009, 08:21 AM

Yes, I use St Marks powders too and am familiar with the numbering system.

**Mike Irwin** · July 7, 2009, 08:57 AM

That numbering system has carried over from when Winchester still owned the powder operations.

July 5, 2009, 11:09 PM	#1
Blue Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2009 Posts: 113	Factory Ammo Question Is there somewhere you can look up the details of the load for factory cartridges? Example: Winchester White Box / 45ACP / 230 gr FMJ /Target/ Range. Would be interested in knowing what powder they use and how much. Also, what primer used. I have questions about some others, as well, and would like to find a place to look up the details. Thanks,

July 5, 2009, 11:58 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	They use powders that are similar to the powders that we can buy, but they are not available on the open market. Powders for reloading are known as canister powders. They are blends of powders from different lots, the intention being to achieve and maintain a certain performance level over a period of many years and many, many lots. The powders used in factory ammo normally come from a single, unblended lot, with charge specifics being adjusted to the ballistics the company wants for that particular ammunition. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 6, 2009, 12:43 AM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Mike Irwin gave you the scoop, but to dig a little deeper in to it... If you bought a box of WWB in 2005 and a box of WWB in 2009 and yanked both bullets, there's a good chance you'd find different powders in them. The blends change over time, and as he said, they simply load to a particular pressure range. There truly is no source data for ANYBODY'S factory ammo. Best you can do from a few companies are when they advertise or publish their velocities. And as Mr. A said, you can also shoot them through your own chrono, then find a similar bullet and try to replicate what they've done. If it's a potent, expensive defense round, chances are that you can't completely replicate it because you don't have access to the powders they use and the equipment they have at their disposal. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

July 6, 2009, 08:43 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"If you bought a box of WWB in 2005 and a box of WWB in 2009 and yanked both bullets, there's a good chance you'd find different powders in them." Actually, you'd very likely find the exact same powder, just different lots. To the best of my knowledge, Winchester is still loading almost all of it's .45 ammo, as well as its 9, .380, and others, with the industrial equivalent of WW 231. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 6, 2009, 10:05 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	The flattened nature of some ball powders is done in a manufacturing step to adjust burning rates. Factory lots are often blended to finess burning rates and get performance desired characteristics. "They use the same stuff that they sell us." Yes, they use the same stuff they sell us, but NOT canister powders. The basic chemical formula is the same, but you couldn't walk into the Winchester plant, to any of their production lines, and pull powder out of the machines that are usable with the reloading infomation we have available to us. The companies load with non-canister powders. An attempt to use a non-canister powder with the information from any of the loading manuals that are out there could result in a very nasty surprise. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 6, 2009, 12:16 AM	#3
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Just use the same bullet and get a chronograph. Get to the same speed and you will basically have the same ammo as the factory stuff for handguns. It'll be every bit as good but usually better and you can show your buddies that you are smarter than them. LOL

July 6, 2009, 12:57 AM	#5
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	And usually the box will tell you what bullet you are using. I can look at a bullet and tell you what it is. Unless it's an over sees bullet. But if it's a foreign bullet, it's probably a FMJ not worth a damn. WWB are bad about that. I reload for accuracy and reliabity however. I don't think you can buy hydrashock bullets as a component also. Oh well. I never have liked Federal ammo. The Feds.

July 6, 2009, 08:59 AM	#7
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Winchester ammunition uses Winchester powder and primers. 231 and WSF are popular in pistol loads. They use the same stuff that they sell us. Their higher end personal defense stuff like the Ranger line is most likely non-canister powder. I'll run out to the shop and pull a round.

July 6, 2009, 09:08 AM	#8
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	6.1gr of a ball powder from the 115gr Ranger load. Notice two different grain sizes. Most likely a blend as there is nothing in the manuals or industry notes I have for 6.1gr of powder. Best closeup I could get.

July 6, 2009, 10:40 AM	#11
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Right Nick. Never exceed max loads in the book. Choose the right powder. And watch for excessive pressure. I had a ball working up some 454Casull rounds to match the factory Hornady stuff. 240gr XTP MAG smoking out at 2000fps out of a 7.5" barrelled Ruger Super Redhawk You really gotta hold on when those babies light off! LOL

July 6, 2009, 10:37 PM	#13
Blue Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2009 Posts: 113	Factory ammo Thanks for all the info. I was just wondering about the factory ammo some because in many cases it performs a lot differently than my reloads. In 45acp, for example, I am getting more recoil and often more flash with the factory loads than with my own and yet - at 850-900 fps (book values) mine seem to shoot more predictable groups and with less recoil and flash. Just an observation and illustrates at least part of the reason for asking the question in the first place. I'm saving up for a chrono and think I will pull a few bullets from some factory ammo and see if I can learn anything by weighing the charge and comparing relative case volume. Might be able to visually describe the powder as it relates to what I am using now. Just curious, mostly. I appreciate all the responses.

July 6, 2009, 11:38 PM	#14
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,769	I'll tell you a secret Use one of your favorite factory rounds and bullet with similar profile to set the crimp and OAL for your reloading dies. This is a trouble free way to set your dies. Simply take the seater plug out, screw in your die until it's snug with the factory round all the way up on the ram. Then lock it down to set crimp. Then screw un the seater plug and lock it down. Works great for having the same outside specs as your factory ammo for feed reliability. I would suggest W231 and Winchester LP primer. As others have stated load to a velocity target and you are done. Make sure you don't go over max in your load recipe and you'll be just fine. rc

July 7, 2009, 12:19 AM	#15
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Um, not really. The powders that Winchester uses is the same exact powder you buy at retail. They just package it in retail packaging. I've spoken at length with the Winchester technicians that have confirmed this." This this is a SIGNIFICANT change from how Winchester conducted operations just a few years ago and when I was with American Rifleman magazine back in the 1990s. Non-canister powders such as WW 230 and WW 295 were used to load ammunition. The canister versions, available retail to handloaders, were WW 231 and WW 296. Other powers had similar, but different, names. I suspect, however, that you're only getting part of the story. While 230 and 231 ARE the exact same powders in chemical composition, they're not blended the exact same way, nor are they interchangeable. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

July 7, 2009, 08:21 AM	#16
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Yes, I use St Marks powders too and am familiar with the numbering system.

July 7, 2009, 08:57 AM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	That numbering system has carried over from when Winchester still owned the powder operations. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.