Problems with Lee neck sizing dies

[Huskerguy]

I normally full length size my brass with Hornady dies. I shoot both a mini 14 and a Winchester bolt. I saved my brass from my bolt and wanted to try neck sizing only. I sized about 75 rounds, used varget powder and went to seating winchester 55 gran bullets. They fit very loose, in fact I could push them in by hand and once seated I could spin them around in the case and some I could move up and down. I tried other bullets, Nosler, Hornady and had the same results. There are no adjustments on the Lee sizing die besides up and down for the decapping pin and the seating tool does not crimp. Where am I going wrong?

While I am at it, what do many of you use for OAL? My Lyman book calls for an OAL of 2.260 while my older Hornady book calls for 2.200. What is correct?

[darkgael]

The Lee NK dies use a collet and a mandrel in order to size the neck of the case. This is a different approach to neck-sizing than other manufacturers. Using one requires a different approach.
The collet die only sizes a small amount of the neck - about the last 1/16th inch. The die must be adjusted exactly.
They require much more force to be used in order to size. A common technique is to size the case, drop the ram, spin the case one half a turn in its s/h and then size again.
Last - very important - if you are sizing brass that you have sized before, then chance are the necks have become work hardened. The Lee Collet die just does not exert enough force - even pushed hard - to size hardened necks. You should anneal the necks (a good practice in any case).
Hope that this helps.
Pete

[Posit]

HG: FYI, I have two Lee collet dies. One (.223) works just fine; the other (25-06) works the same as you describe - bullets can be pushed thru. Annealing is not my problem - same effect with new brass. I've read several posts indicating you can contact Lee and order a different sized mandrel, some other possible solutions. Personally, I think Lee products are cheaply made and lack the quality I want. There are many differening opinions on this point - but personally I don't buy Lee products any longer.

Your OAL issue can be affected by many things. Are you certain Lyman is citing OAL for exactly the same Hornady bulet as the Hornady manual? If so, I would check the Hornady web site for current OAL data, and use it.

[rwilson452]

I have seen where the mandrel is just a couple thousands off. Chuck it up in a drill and use a fine abrasive cloth to polish it down.

Lee will sell you a new "undersized" mandrel. I think they are .002 under usually that is enough.

I polished mine down until it gave me a I.D. the same as the full length sizing die

[steve4102]

The collet die only sizes a small amount of the neck - about the last 1/16th inch. The die must be adjusted exactly

This is simply not the case at all. The Lee Collet die sizes all of the neck except for about a 1/16 of an inch above the shoulder.

You loose bullet problem is very common with the Lee Collet Die. The problem is in the mandrel itself, not how you have your die adjusted. The mandrel is too big, period. There are two ways to fix this common problem. Remove the mandrel from the die and chuck it into a drill and polish it down to your desired neck tension. A little trial and error is needed here. Or you can just call Lee and order a "Reduced" mandrel for $5.

Don't go cranking on the die and putting tons of force on the press handle to try and size the neck smaller, you can't. You will only damage the die. With the proper size mandrel the Lee Collet die will size all of the neck with a measly 25lbs of pressure on the handle.

[wingman]

You loose bullet problem is very common with the Lee Collet Die. The problem is in the mandrel itself, not how you have your die adjusted. The mandrel is too big, period. There are two ways to fix this common problem. Remove the mandrel from the die and chuck it into a drill and polish it down to your desired neck tension. A little trial and error is needed here. Or you can just call Lee and order a "Reduced" mandrel for $5.

I just purchased a set for 223 used approximately 3 cases before getting proper adjustment and I turn cases twice, works fine but it does require more setup once done however the results are good. Honestly if you need help call Lee or email I found them good at responding, if they can solve ordere a reduced mandrel, also some(very small amount) of high pressure grease on collet where it rubs on wall of die will make it easier to operate. Truthfully I suspect you don't have it set correct.

[antiwhackos]

This is simply not the case at all. The Lee Collet die sizes all of the neck except for about a 1/16 of an inch above the shoulder.

It has been my experience that the die will size a certain part of the neck depending on how far the die is screwed into the press.

[Huskerguy]

OK, I have read all of the responses and I have parts and calipers all over my computer table. My conclusions are:

The inner sleeve of the die itself has a taper where the top of shell casing can contact and I assume bring the sides together with the taper piece that sits on top of that in turn is seated by the knurled knob on top. The problem is that the shell casing cannot touch this taper before it hits the shell holder, there is simply not enough travel there to adjust things any tighter. I can push all day long and not get enough throw to get a crimp on the edge of the neck.

I did everything by the book on adjusting and I did not get any different results. I continued to adjust but it did not alter the inside or outside diameter of the neck.

The directions from Lee do say to remove .001 from the mandrel which seems like the only alternative right now. The mandrel is straight and determines the inside diameter of the neck so that cannot change anything by adjusting. The only way is to reduce the size of the mandrel itself.

So, I conclude that I will need to reduce the diameter of the mandrel to get the tension I need. I can see where it appears there is suppose to be adjustment for the top of the neck casing to be compressed slightly in the taper of the die but there is not enough length to allow enough taper.

Are my conclusions accurate?

EDIT: I just took a FL RCBS and a Hornady FL and removed the decap pins since I have new primers (gold) in the cases. Essentially I FL sized without decapping. Bullets are tight now. Convinced that the mandrel is the problem.

[snuffy]

The inner sleeve of the die itself has a taper where the top of shell casing can contact and I assume bring the sides together with the taper piece that sits on top of that in turn is seated by the knurled knob on top. The problem is that the shell casing cannot touch this taper before it hits the shell holder, there is simply not enough travel there to adjust things any tighter. I can push all day long and not get enough throw to get a crimp on the edge of the neck.

You're still confused as to how the die works, BUT your conclusion is correct. The mandrel controls the final inside diameter of the neck, and ALL of the neck is sized. There's one spot on the mandrel that actually contacts the inside of the neck, that area is the ONLY spot that has to be reduced to achieve the desired results.

Tighten the die down too far, or put excessive force on the handle will result in the aluminum cap stripping the threads on it, and shooting out the top of the die, ask me how I know! The only solution is to reduce the madrel size, or call lee for a reduced size mandrel. As to why lee doesn't just supply the dies with that mandrel, well, you'll have to ask them that when you call!

[wingman]

Note; if your using a lee press setup is slightly different then say like a
Lyman turret.

[steve4102]

Go here and watch the video on Collet die adjustment.

http://www.leeprecision.com/html/HelpVideos/video.html

[steve4102]

Collet Die adjustment

If you are using the Collet die in an RCBS Rockchucker press, or a similar design that toggles over center at the top of the (ram) stroke, this applies far greater force than is necessary to resize just the neck of the case, and can damage the die or collapse the case. To correct this situation, adjust the die two full turns into the press after the die contacts the shell holder with the ram at the top of its stroke, rather than one as in the instructions. This will stop the press before it gets to the toggle over point. With a press without having an over center feature, apply about 25 lbs. of pressure to the handle once it bottoms out to resize the case. On most presses, this translates to over 600 lbs of pressure on the ram.

The collet might be stuck in the closed position from closing the die without a case inside. Remove the cap from the top of the Collet die and push the mandrel, collet sleeve and collet out through the top of the die. Open the collet back up with a tapered punch or Phillips screwdriver.

If this occurs with a full length sizing die, the decapper/expander is out of adjustment. The decapper/expander should be flush with the top of the decapper clamp. If it protrudes more than 1/4 inch, the die will be resizing the inside and outside diameter of the case neck at the same time, resulting in a collapsed case shoulder.




Collet Die explanation

The Collet neck sizing die is superior to the competition's neck sizing die design because it squeezes the neck against a mandrel. This results in very uniform case mouth inner diameter, regardless of case wall thickness.

With bushing-type neck sizing dies, one has to select (and usually purchase) the appropriate bushing to get the desired case mouth inner diameter. Uniform case mouth inner diameter gives uniform bullet pull, and as you know, uniformity is what accurate ammunition is all about.



Collet die pressure exertion

All of the sizing in the Collet die takes place at the very end of the stroke, when the ram/shell holder appears to bottom out against the base of the die. If you lean into the handle at this point, you will force the collet up into the die body, and cause the collet to squeeze the case neck down against the mandrel (the very end of which pops out the spent primer). About 25 lbs. of force is sufficient to resize most cases. If you are sitting in front of your press, just leaning your upper body weight into the lever is about right.

A good way to determine how much is necessary is to start the case into the die and feel the die remove the primer. Start using pressure and work up to what you think is about 25 lbs. Remove the case from the die and attempt to place the intended bullet in the case neck. If there is little or no resistance, repeat the process with slightly more pressure. When you have reached a point where there are vertical striation marks on the outside of the case neck or the intended bullet does not fit easily into the case neck, the correct amount of pressure has been achieved.

[darkgael]

This is simply not the case at all. The Lee Collet die sizes all of the neck except for about a 1/16 of an inch above the shoulder.

Yep. Sorry. I should have taken the die apart and looked BEFORE I posted the wrong info.
Annealing, though, did solve my "loose" neck problem with my .3006 dies. I'm getting the impression, though, that I had a different situation. I was loading and reloading a small lot of cases. The dies did work just fine at the start - when the brass was new. Gradually the sizing became less effective. Then I annealed the necks and they were fine again.
Pete

[pilot_teacher]

All I can say about the Lee Collet die is AAARRRRGGGGHHH.
I had mixed results with it. It's a pain in the butt when you have to resize 150 cases of one caliber and 200 of another. AND, has anyone checked the case neck run out before and after collet resizing? I would think a properly adjusted die would remove most if not all of the run out but it doesn't. Out of disgust I purchased Lyman's 243 and 30-06 neck sizing dies and it made neck sizing a little easier but did nothing for neck run out plus added the inconvenience of cleaning the lubricant off the cases. What I ended up doing was to dig out my old Pacific tool 243 dies. It's a full length die. I re-sized all the cases full length and checked to neck run out using the RCBS case master. All run outs were between .0005 and .0015. Now I don't mind cleaning off the residual lubricant
Subsequent re loadings were accomplished using the the full length die backed out a few thousandths which only neck sized the case. All cases were checked once again using the RCBS Precision Mike to make sure the shoulders were not set back.

The Lee collet idea is excellent but has many draw backs. If one were to polish down the mandrel too much it will not increase neck tension, The result would be is the bullet itself would expand the case. This is not desirable.

When I was using the the collet dies I too, noted the some bullets could be pushed into the case but others fit ok.
So my conclusion is that the collet die introduces another variable into the equation. These show up as inconsistent group and varying average MV's when Chronied.

Been reloading for 55 years. First reloading tool was the Ideal Tong Tool and dies for 30-30. The 30-30 resizing die was F.L. using a vise to push the case into the die and a supplied rod to hammer the case out of the die. I bet most of you guys are too young to remember those.

Then got a C-H press and Pacific dies for 30-30, 30-06, 270 and 243.

[Unclenick]

Just a couple more years and you'll have this reloading thing down.

Kidding aside, there is an inherent issue with the design of the collet die and that is the SAAMI neck wall thickness tolerance. A thick neck will let you take more off the mandrel before the collet fingers meet at their slits. As long as there is still a slight gap there, though, you can keep narrowing it. Were I Lee, I would extend the collet closing sleeve so as to align the case the way a sliding sleeve competition bullet seater die does, then float the mandrel laterally to self-center the way those same bullet seaters do.

That said, I still find the collet dies work well if you get them aligned properly. The Forster Co-ax press works best with them for that reason. They do prevent the "dreaded donut" from forming, which the standard neck sizers do not. Everyone I know rotates the case 180 degrees and runs the press ram back up a second time when using those dies, and that tends to neutralize neck tilt to some degree.

As to the conventional neck sizers, I prefer the bushing types. If you turn your necks to uniform thickness and handle the cases carefully and don't get any dents in the case mouths, you can pick a bushing that lets avoid the expander ball altogether. It is the expander that is usually guilty of pulling the necks off-axis.

[pilot_teacher]

Unclenick Is 100% correct that the expander ball may pull the case necks off axis. That's why (I.H.O.) competitive dies cost lots more money. That's why I find my old Pacific dies have given me the least of these problems. There is slop in the die threads of the press as well as the die body itself.

When setting up the dies never tighten the locking ring down tight. After screwing in the die to touch the plate or case holder, insert a washer between the plate and the bottom of the die. Move the ram again against plate and while holding the pressure tighten the locking ring down TIGHT. This will take out any slack and slightly stretch the thread and so remove another variable. This does not harm the thread.

[wncchester]

"The problem is that the shell casing cannot touch this taper before it hits the shell holder,"

The Lee Collet die is more complicated than other dies - it has a moving part! But it's really easy to use. The case isn't supposed to touch the top of the collet sleeve. Properly done, the case will have NO upward pressure applied to it. Only the steel sleeve does, and that's what pushes the collet fingers inward toward the mandrel.



Never mind cam-over or no cam-over, just slowly screw the die down until it sizes correctly and all will be fine. Do it the Tim Taylor way (gorilla) and you will surely push the alum top cap out; it's made to do that to prevent gorilla-grade damage to your press or the die body.

Work hardened brass will affect the results from any die, consistant sizing or any kind demands consistant brass. We can't possibly attain that ideal but we can get closer if we anneal the necks from time to time.

[mrawesome22]

Lee collet dies work well once adjusted properly. I do find it irresponsible that Lee cannot keep QC in check. .002" off? That is rediculous. Every Lee collet die should come with three mandrels and a piece of paper that says "Hope one of these works." Oh brother. Hornady and Redding are top shelf.