Heritage carbine vs 16" handgun

tickTalk · December 2, 2021, 02:06 PM

I was wondering if anyone has both, the heritage revolving carbine, and the 16" barrel handgun.
It looks to me like they are the same frame and barrel, just a different backstrap and stock. Anyone have both and can compare?
i ask because I have the pistol, and they sell the carbine backstrap and stock on their website, and the barrel is just barely legal for a rifle.

TX Nimrod · December 2, 2021, 03:56 PM

If the OP installs a buttstock on his revolver he will run afoul of Federal SBR regulations. That is a very bad thing to do.

Just because you can doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

.

wild cat mccane · December 2, 2021, 09:08 PM

Opposite.

If you install it on the pistol, it becomes a rifle forever. Removing it becomes the problem.

74A95 · December 3, 2021, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TX Nimrod

If the OP installs a buttstock on his revolver he will run afoul of Federal SBR regulations. That is a very bad thing to do.

Just because you can doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/if-p...possession-nfa

tickTalk · December 3, 2021, 11:30 AM

This pistol has a 16" barrel. That is legal for a rifle, as long as with the rifle stock it is overall 26" it is all legal.
And you can make a pistol into a rifle anytime you want without any paperwork, so long as the resulting rifle is 'legal'. You can switch it back to being a pistol anytime too... See ATF ruling 2011-4.
What you can't do is the opposite, take a rifle and make it into a pistol. You run afoul of 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(4)
That is why modular systems like TC contenders are legal. I just bought and transferred the receiver registered as a pistol. then get whatever barrels and stocks you want.

And heritage customer service is non existent. They don't even acknowledge receiving an email, and phone is answered somewhere in India I think. Ever since they got bought by Taurus they have gone to crap...

tickTalk · December 7, 2021, 08:56 PM

So nobody knows if the carbine back strap will fit on the pistol frames? I would hate to buy one and have it not fit..

wild cat mccane · December 7, 2021, 09:20 PM

Page 30 of the "instruction manual" link

https://heritagemfg.com/rough-rider-...-leather-sling

tickTalk · December 7, 2021, 10:51 PM

Thanks.. though that doesn't help much

So if we use that exploded view, I can ask my question differently...
Is part 1.1.1 (frame) the same as the frame on the pistols. Same exact shape and screw placements..
Considering how cheap heritage has gotten, I really suspect it is.. the carbine is just the 16" barrel pistol with a different back strap and stock.
You can get the pistol for <$150, the carbine is still >$300. But, the carbine back strap and stock are just $70...

wild cat mccane · December 8, 2021, 09:25 AM

It helps incredibly well! You just didn't look!

Page 28 of the small bore shows that the pistol has the grip as part of the lower frame. The carbine does not have the pistol grip as part of the frame.

You're welcome :P

tickTalk · December 9, 2021, 01:23 PM

Well that's because a carbine doesn't have a pistol grip.
it has a shoulder stock mount. I'm not sure where you were looking, but in both cases the backstrap (with integrated trigger gaurd) bolts onto the frame.
Thats part 2 on the rancher, and part 12.3/12/4 on the pistols.. I suspect that 1.1.1 on the carbine is the same part as 6.2 on the pistol.
Its all moot since I ordered the parts anyway.. will see if they fit.

wild cat mccane · December 9, 2021, 05:57 PM

I am willing to be wrong. But just looking at both frames, the grip on the pistol isn't going to allow the stock to fit. If it does, the pistol frame is way below the carbine stock.

franco45 · December 10, 2021, 10:25 PM

You remove the grip frame and replace it with the backstrap assembly and then attach the stock.https://www.shopheritagemfg.com/stocks

Quote:

https://www.shopheritagemfg.com/stocks

wild cat mccane · December 10, 2021, 11:09 PM

I bet you physically can't attach it on purpose without swapping out the carbine grip frame thingy backstrap on the pistol. Here's the reason why:

Without that finger rest thingy on the carbine for your supporting hand, you're going to put your supporting hand in a bad place for gas and lead spitting.

Heritage would be really dumb to let you just put on the stock and not allow you a safe place to put your other hand...

Will be interesting to hear back.

Bill DeShivs · December 11, 2021, 12:24 AM

The grip frame for the stock is different from the pistol grip frame. My bet is the grip frames will interchange.

tinhorn · December 18, 2021, 05:24 PM

Anxious to hear how it turns out. I looked at the handgun but after my wife asked if a flag would fly out saying BANG, I bought the carbine. Who can resist a revolving rifle?

You know that for cheap money you can buy a magnum cylinder, right?

Mike38 · December 18, 2021, 06:07 PM

A Thompson Contender pistol can be switched to a rifle, then back to a pistol, right? As long as the overall length of the rifle meets minimum legal specs. Or am I wrong?

wild cat mccane · January 1, 2022, 03:36 AM

Yes. This is wrong. If you have a short barrel and a stock, you have intent to make an SBR.

Waiting to hear back if the pistol grip frame part fits the stock. I don't think they do.

Bill DeShivs · January 2, 2022, 12:28 AM

You actually think they would make an entirely different frame for the rifle?
Do you know what a single action grip frame is, and how it attaches?

tickTalk · April 4, 2022, 04:39 PM

Just in case anyone is still interested.. I got the new backstrap and a basic wood stock.. and YES, the carbine backstrap is interchangeable with the pistol grip backstrap. If I could figure out how to post a pic here, i would do so.
this does raise the issue of putting this on one of the other hm revolvers.. instantly making an illegal SBR... so don't do that. but the 16 pistol has a 16.3 inch barrel.. all legal. And since this was born a pistol, can switch back and forth whenever I want.
don't pull the shoulder stock off one originally 'born' as a carbine and replace with a pistol grip, though.
Now, I need to figure out if the 'barkeep' backstrap is interchangeable with the roughriders.. I want one of the new 1 inch barrel barkeep boots.. but of course, to short for california roster single-action exemption . I can modify one after I legally get it though. So I think I will get a 3 inch barkeep, replace the grip and backstrap with a birdshead and backstrap, and cut the barrel down to 1 inch. Don't even have to worry about the front sight, as the boot doesn't have one.

DaleA · April 4, 2022, 04:59 PM

Thanks for getting back to us. Lots of folk wonder how these things turn out.

Just as a side note I think the restriction that you can't put a shoulder stock on a hand gun is really dumb to the point where if anyone had any common sense the restriction would be lifted immediately.

I also think the restriction on suppressors/silencers is dumb too. Since the EUROPEANS sometimes allow them without restrictions I don't know why we can't have them in this country too.

The last bit is a slap at the folk making regulations...many of whom seem to be enamored with EVERYTHING that the EUROPEANS do.

FrankenMauser · April 4, 2022, 05:13 PM

I never saw this thread before now.
I could have shut down some of the Fuddery and non-sense about "illegal NFA item", as well as helped you out with your question.

The frames on Rough Riders are interchangeable.
I bought a Rough Rider 16" specifically so that I could go back and forth from handgun to carbine. You can't do it (legally) if you start with the Rancher carbine.

tickTalk · April 4, 2022, 10:42 PM

Yeah.. I have a TC contender with assorted rifle and pistol barrels, stocks and grips.. basically just bought a pistol frame and grip, then built up from there..
Now my issue is which 16" RR to use.. back when i got them, I got 2. The plan was to cut one down to 12". Before I got around to that, heritage came out with a 12" RR (only in that ugly fake case hardened, but whatever).. so I switched to the carbine.. I got one of each model 16", the iron sights and the fibre sights.. which would you use for the carbine?

FrankenMauser · April 5, 2022, 09:41 AM

Would depend upon desires.
If wanting something "nostalgic", iron sights.
If wanting more precision, the 'target' sights.

wild cat mccane · April 6, 2022, 04:41 PM

The Heritage manuals are wrong? It clearly shows the carbine has a different gripe area on the frame. Color me wrong. But then so is the Heritage manual on their website. Page 30 of the Carbine: https://heritagemfg.com/Heritage_RancherManual.pdf

FrankenMauser · April 6, 2022, 09:35 PM

It is a different shape, but does not affect function. It bolts right on.

December 2, 2021, 02:06 PM	#1
tickTalk Member Join Date: February 18, 2018 Location: california Posts: 21	Heritage carbine vs 16" handgun I was wondering if anyone has both, the heritage revolving carbine, and the 16" barrel handgun. It looks to me like they are the same frame and barrel, just a different backstrap and stock. Anyone have both and can compare? i ask because I have the pistol, and they sell the carbine backstrap and stock on their website, and the barrel is just barely legal for a rifle.

December 2, 2021, 03:56 PM	#2
TX Nimrod Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2009 Location: Zona Posts: 423	If the OP installs a buttstock on his revolver he will run afoul of Federal SBR regulations. That is a very bad thing to do. Just because you can doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. . __________________ .22LR - .223 - .22-250 - .243 - 6mm REM - .25-20 - .25-35 - .25 BB - .250/3000 - .257 WBY - .260 - .30 M1 - .300 BO - .30 Herrett - .300 Savage - .32 H&R - .303 - .338-06 - .338 WM - .35 REM - .38-55 - .45 LC - .45-70 - .50-70

December 2, 2021, 09:08 PM	#3
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,629	Opposite. If you install it on the pistol, it becomes a rifle forever. Removing it becomes the problem. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

December 3, 2021, 11:30 AM	#5
tickTalk Member Join Date: February 18, 2018 Location: california Posts: 21	totally legal This pistol has a 16" barrel. That is legal for a rifle, as long as with the rifle stock it is overall 26" it is all legal. And you can make a pistol into a rifle anytime you want without any paperwork, so long as the resulting rifle is 'legal'. You can switch it back to being a pistol anytime too... See ATF ruling 2011-4. What you can't do is the opposite, take a rifle and make it into a pistol. You run afoul of 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(4) That is why modular systems like TC contenders are legal. I just bought and transferred the receiver registered as a pistol. then get whatever barrels and stocks you want. And heritage customer service is non existent. They don't even acknowledge receiving an email, and phone is answered somewhere in India I think. Ever since they got bought by Taurus they have gone to crap...

December 7, 2021, 09:20 PM	#7
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,629	Page 30 of the "instruction manual" link https://heritagemfg.com/rough-rider-...-leather-sling __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

December 7, 2021, 08:56 PM	#6
tickTalk Member Join Date: February 18, 2018 Location: california Posts: 21	So nobody knows if the carbine back strap will fit on the pistol frames? I would hate to buy one and have it not fit..

December 7, 2021, 10:51 PM	#8
tickTalk Member Join Date: February 18, 2018 Location: california Posts: 21	Thanks.. though that doesn't help much So if we use that exploded view, I can ask my question differently... Is part 1.1.1 (frame) the same as the frame on the pistols. Same exact shape and screw placements.. Considering how cheap heritage has gotten, I really suspect it is.. the carbine is just the 16" barrel pistol with a different back strap and stock. You can get the pistol for <$150, the carbine is still >$300. But, the carbine back strap and stock are just $70...

December 8, 2021, 09:25 AM	#9
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,629	It helps incredibly well! You just didn't look! Page 28 of the small bore shows that the pistol has the grip as part of the lower frame. The carbine does not have the pistol grip as part of the frame. You're welcome :P __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

December 9, 2021, 01:23 PM	#10
tickTalk Member Join Date: February 18, 2018 Location: california Posts: 21	Well that's because a carbine doesn't have a pistol grip. it has a shoulder stock mount. I'm not sure where you were looking, but in both cases the backstrap (with integrated trigger gaurd) bolts onto the frame. Thats part 2 on the rancher, and part 12.3/12/4 on the pistols.. I suspect that 1.1.1 on the carbine is the same part as 6.2 on the pistol. Its all moot since I ordered the parts anyway.. will see if they fit. Last edited by tickTalk; December 9, 2021 at 06:48 PM.

December 9, 2021, 05:57 PM	#11
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,629	I am willing to be wrong. But just looking at both frames, the grip on the pistol isn't going to allow the stock to fit. If it does, the pistol frame is way below the carbine stock. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

December 10, 2021, 11:09 PM	#13
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,629	I bet you physically can't attach it on purpose without swapping out the carbine grip frame thingy backstrap on the pistol. Here's the reason why: Without that finger rest thingy on the carbine for your supporting hand, you're going to put your supporting hand in a bad place for gas and lead spitting. Heritage would be really dumb to let you just put on the stock and not allow you a safe place to put your other hand... Will be interesting to hear back. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

December 11, 2021, 12:24 AM	#14
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,986	The grip frame for the stock is different from the pistol grip frame. My bet is the grip frames will interchange. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

December 18, 2021, 05:24 PM	#15
tinhorn Junior Member Join Date: December 17, 2021 Posts: 2	Anxious to hear how it turns out. I looked at the handgun but after my wife asked if a flag would fly out saying BANG, I bought the carbine. Who can resist a revolving rifle? You know that for cheap money you can buy a magnum cylinder, right?

December 18, 2021, 06:07 PM	#16
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	A Thompson Contender pistol can be switched to a rifle, then back to a pistol, right? As long as the overall length of the rifle meets minimum legal specs. Or am I wrong?

January 1, 2022, 03:36 AM	#17
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,629	Yes. This is wrong. If you have a short barrel and a stock, you have intent to make an SBR. Waiting to hear back if the pistol grip frame part fits the stock. I don't think they do. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

January 2, 2022, 12:28 AM	#18
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,986	You actually think they would make an entirely different frame for the rifle? Do you know what a single action grip frame is, and how it attaches? __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

April 4, 2022, 04:39 PM	#19
tickTalk Member Join Date: February 18, 2018 Location: california Posts: 21	Just in case anyone is still interested.. I got the new backstrap and a basic wood stock.. and YES, the carbine backstrap is interchangeable with the pistol grip backstrap. If I could figure out how to post a pic here, i would do so. this does raise the issue of putting this on one of the other hm revolvers.. instantly making an illegal SBR... so don't do that. but the 16 pistol has a 16.3 inch barrel.. all legal. And since this was born a pistol, can switch back and forth whenever I want. don't pull the shoulder stock off one originally 'born' as a carbine and replace with a pistol grip, though. Now, I need to figure out if the 'barkeep' backstrap is interchangeable with the roughriders.. I want one of the new 1 inch barrel barkeep boots.. but of course, to short for california roster single-action exemption . I can modify one after I legally get it though. So I think I will get a 3 inch barkeep, replace the grip and backstrap with a birdshead and backstrap, and cut the barrel down to 1 inch. Don't even have to worry about the front sight, as the boot doesn't have one.

April 4, 2022, 04:59 PM	#20
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Thanks for getting back to us. Lots of folk wonder how these things turn out. Just as a side note I think the restriction that you can't put a shoulder stock on a hand gun is really dumb to the point where if anyone had any common sense the restriction would be lifted immediately. I also think the restriction on suppressors/silencers is dumb too. Since the EUROPEANS sometimes allow them without restrictions I don't know why we can't have them in this country too. The last bit is a slap at the folk making regulations...many of whom seem to be enamored with EVERYTHING that the EUROPEANS do.

April 4, 2022, 05:13 PM	#21
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,426	I never saw this thread before now. I could have shut down some of the Fuddery and non-sense about "illegal NFA item", as well as helped you out with your question. The frames on Rough Riders are interchangeable. I bought a Rough Rider 16" specifically so that I could go back and forth from handgun to carbine. You can't do it (legally) if you start with the Rancher carbine. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

April 4, 2022, 10:42 PM	#22
tickTalk Member Join Date: February 18, 2018 Location: california Posts: 21	Yeah.. I have a TC contender with assorted rifle and pistol barrels, stocks and grips.. basically just bought a pistol frame and grip, then built up from there.. Now my issue is which 16" RR to use.. back when i got them, I got 2. The plan was to cut one down to 12". Before I got around to that, heritage came out with a 12" RR (only in that ugly fake case hardened, but whatever).. so I switched to the carbine.. I got one of each model 16", the iron sights and the fibre sights.. which would you use for the carbine?

April 5, 2022, 09:41 AM	#23
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,426	Would depend upon desires. If wanting something "nostalgic", iron sights. If wanting more precision, the 'target' sights. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

April 6, 2022, 04:41 PM	#24
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,629	The Heritage manuals are wrong? It clearly shows the carbine has a different gripe area on the frame. Color me wrong. But then so is the Heritage manual on their website. Page 30 of the Carbine: https://heritagemfg.com/Heritage_RancherManual.pdf __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

April 6, 2022, 09:35 PM	#25
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,426	It is a different shape, but does not affect function. It bolts right on. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.