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Old November 24, 2021, 11:48 PM   #26
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Looking at the fact that the original poster hasn't been back to this thread, and a quite recent join date, I might be tempted to say do not feed...fill in the blank
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Old November 25, 2021, 01:52 PM   #27
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For the benefit of those still here, and any other interested parties, this statement needs some clarification.

Quote:
Speaking of gas-piston-action, back further into history, there's that infamous German Sturmgewehr 44 in 7.92×33mm Kurz that started the true "assault rifle" craze. Still heavy, big 8 mm rounds. If Hitler had not killed the assault weapons program while going against Mother Russia, they might have conquered the world as we know it.
First off, the "big heavy 8mm" round fires a 125gr bullet at approx, 2250fps. It's only "big and heavy" compared to a .22 caliber 55gr or 62gr bullet.

Main point of error is that Hitler did not kill the "assault weapons" program. In fact, he created it, and endorsed it, once he got over his fit.

The success of the Blitzkrieg created a short sightedness in the Nazi administration, which is today called "victory disease". A very similar thing happened with Imperial Japan, for the same reasons, they were winning, and had been, and doing so relatively easily.

ONE result of this was Hitler cancelling further research and development of new RIFLES. Germany was winning, new rifles were not needed, and development of them was a waste of resources. However, this directive did not extend to the development of new designs of submachine gun.

So, while new rifles were officially not developed, several groups of German engineers continued to work on them, "unofficially" and one group continued development, and reached limited field testing of their designs by calling them MPs. Maschinen Pistole is the German term for submachine gun.
By 1943 limited numbers of the MP 43 were being field tested on the Russian front. "Technically" they were designated submachine guns, but in reality they were rifles, firing the newly designed intermediate round the 7.92mm Kurz.

In early 44 at a conference with his field commanders, Hitler asked what else they needed and was told "give us more of the new rifles!"
"WHAT NEW RIFLES???!!!"

When it was explained to him Hitler threw one of his fits because his orders had been flouted. After he calmed down, the "new rifle" the MP 44, was demonstrated for him, and he immediately became enthusiastic about it. "This is what I want! This is what I need!! This will be my Sturmgewehr!"

This changed the MP 44 to the Stg 44, and production was officially supported from then on. It was, of course, too little, too late to change the course of the war, but the fact remains that the term "Sturmgewehr" (storm rifle or assault rifle) was coined by Adolph Hitler.

Since then the term "assault rifle" has been adopted by the firearms community, though not the US military or in US law.

The defining features of an assault rifle are magazine fed, SELECT FIRE, and using an intermediate power cartridge. If it has all three of these features, it is an assault rifle. If it doesn't have all three, it's not.

"Assault Weapon" is a term made up by the news media and put into Federal law with the (now sunset) 1994 "Assault Weapons Bill", which covered SEMI AUTO firearms, and not one single actual assault rifle, which are, under US law, machine guns.
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Old November 25, 2021, 02:39 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by AlongCameJones View Post
People sometimes still call them jammomatics. These gas-impingment-action rifles foul the bolt and breech area with carbon unlike the FN FAL or Kalashnakov AK-47 with gas-piston-action separate from the breech area.

The only trouble is we have never had a nifty, light, compact service/tactical rifle/carbine with the toughness and relaibilty of an FN or AK chambered in 5.56 NATO/.233 as far as I know.

Speaking of gas-piston-action, back further into history, there's that infamous German Sturmgewehr 44 in 7.92×33mm Kurz that started the true "assault rifle" craze. Still heavy, big 8 mm rounds. If Hitler had not killed the assault weapons program while going against Mother Russia, they might have conquered the world as we know it.
You either go with accuracy and tight tolerances or low quality junk.
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Old November 25, 2021, 02:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
Until you pull the trigger and the rifle doesn't go bang.
Bad primer?
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Old November 25, 2021, 03:35 PM   #30
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They need lubrication to work. They don't have to be clean. Just lubed. They will work dry until they get very dirty. I have owned more ARs over the years than I can remember. None were unreliable with good mags and good ammo. I have a Windham that has nothing but steel cases wolf 55 grain rounds through it. Somewhere around 4 thousand rounds. I can remember one missfire. The round had a good solid firing pin hit. One bad round.
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Old November 26, 2021, 06:17 PM   #31
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These gas-impingment-action rifles foul the bolt and breech area with carbon unlike the FN FAL or Kalashnakov AK-47 with gas-piston-action separate from the breech area.
If you are fouling the action so bad that you can't fire the rifle, you need to try different ammunition. There have been numerous tests where rifles have fired in excess of 15,000 rounds without cleaning. You can search on TFL for a couple of them.

Tha FAL and AK designs have their own drawbacks, weight being the primary one and accuracy the other (not so much in the FAL). Another drawback is how difficult it is to do a repair on either one.

The US Army did extensive tests about a decade ago and concluded that piston guns add nothing to reliability and just add to complexity. Since they have more moving part, they detract from accuracy.

About the only people I hear make this argument anymore are either old farts who don't know what they are talking about or mall ninja types who learned everything they know about guns from playing video games.
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Old November 26, 2021, 06:31 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by armoredman View Post
Looking at the fact that the original poster hasn't been back to this thread, and a quite recent join date, I might be tempted to say do not feed...fill in the blank
As vbb doesn't have a "like" button - this!
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Old November 27, 2021, 05:04 PM   #33
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They do jam a lot IF YOU ISSUE THE WRONG POWDER AND DONT CLEAN THEM...as the Army did at the start.
...but that was more than 50years ago, and we figured it out fairly quickly.
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Old November 27, 2021, 07:35 PM   #34
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...but that was more than 50years ago, and we figured it out fairly quickly
Not quickly enough for some of the people I once knew. (still after all these years)
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Old November 28, 2021, 08:19 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raimius View Post
They do jam a lot IF YOU ISSUE THE WRONG POWDER AND DONT CLEAN THEM...as the Army did at the start.
...but that was more than 50years ago, and we figured it out fairly quickly.
As would about anything under similar circumstances.
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Old November 28, 2021, 10:24 AM   #36
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For an axample,apparently Accurate 2520 works better with a hotter primer.I don't know.
I was doing a load development for my STG 58 (FN-FAL).It was a good rifle.built on a DSA receiver.

The typically reliable FN FAL ground to a stop about the second magazine.

The gritty fouling reminded me of some Chinese "bargain" ammo I tried. Once.

Of course,with a couple clicks more gas and some lube,the rifle worked.

But ammo supply line is part of the three legged stool when discussing a rifle design.

I keep a little bottle of CLR in my grip compartment of my AR and my 69-77 gr ammo is loaded in brass cases with RE-15 or Varget.

Most of my mags are C-products or MagPul.

I have no jam-a-matics. They just run.

Last edited by HiBC; November 29, 2021 at 08:38 AM.
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Old November 28, 2021, 02:07 PM   #37
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No malfunctions at all in two years. I have a secret component.
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Old November 28, 2021, 08:18 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlongCameJones View Post
People sometimes still call them jammomatics. These gas-impingment-action rifles foul the bolt and breech area with carbon unlike the FN FAL or Kalashnakov AK-47 with gas-piston-action separate from the breech area.

The only trouble is we have never had a nifty, light, compact service/tactical rifle/carbine with the toughness and relaibilty of an FN or AK chambered in 5.56 NATO/.233 as far as I know.

Speaking of gas-piston-action, back further into history, there's that infamous German Sturmgewehr 44 in 7.92×33mm Kurz that started the true "assault rifle" craze. Still heavy, big 8 mm rounds. If Hitler had not killed the assault weapons program while going against Mother Russia, they might have conquered the world as we know it.
Sig 556. Next question?
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Old November 30, 2021, 07:32 PM   #39
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As I recall the military was using recycled cannon propellant (it's hard to call that stuff powder) and it was stabilized with calcium carbonate. The byproducts from burning this crap would foul the AR rifle about 10x more than anything we shoot today.

It was a complete cluster F*** to to use that trash powder along with scraping the chromed chamber. No money was saved in the long run and many good men were lost because their rifle stopped working. I've known at least 2 'Nam vets that talked about how bad it was and one of them took to carrying a captured AK47.

This is all ancient history now. I believe it was all solved by 1970...

Tony
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Old December 1, 2021, 01:30 PM   #40
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Never had an issue with an M16 in 1969 or an AR15 in later years. Keep it even reasonably clean and it will perform.
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Old December 1, 2021, 03:04 PM   #41
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I do have suspicions that the Stoner type AR's are more prone to have double fed jams than any of the standard AK's.

And sometimes the AR action will just freeze-up for no apparent reason; with the mortar method the preferred remedy.
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Old December 1, 2021, 04:05 PM   #42
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Quote:
I do have suspicions that the Stoner type AR's are more prone to have double fed jams than any of the standard AK's.
And sometimes the AR action will just freeze-up for no apparent reason; with the mortar method the preferred remedy.
No more prone to double feeds than other types. I see all kinds of malfunctions as a gunsmith, and ARs are no more prone than other types from what I have seen. A little bit of maintenance goes a long way on all types of firearms.

The "no apparent reason freeze up" you describe is generally associated with dirty guns and reloaded ammunition. Again, a little bit of maintenance goes a long way, as does reloading with small base dies. You don't see this type of jam in AKs because the chamber is tapered and generally pretty generously proportioned. I have seen jammed AKs that you have to take a hammer to them in order to get them to open.
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Old December 1, 2021, 04:23 PM   #43
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The original GI 20 rd mags were a bit flimsy. Force round # 21 into one,the lips can spread.

Those can double feed.

Most common cause of getting stuck/mortaring is a handloader who does not read and follow die setup instructions

Collapsed shoulders. Operator problem/bad ammo.

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Old December 2, 2021, 02:18 PM   #44
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I have previously jammed one of my AK's...by short stroking the charging handle; which caused the live round (7.62x39) in the chamber to eject straight into the trigger group.
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Old December 2, 2021, 02:24 PM   #45
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AR shooters with a double feed jam, should be aware that the shooter does not have to take the rifle apart, in order to remedy the jam.

"Clearing a Double Feed in an AR-15"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdigQTYvGQk


But I would personally do a chamber check first, instead of racking the charging handle; which could cause a bigger problem with a double feed.

What say you guys?
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Old December 18, 2021, 10:24 PM   #46
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Fake news. AR's work great.
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Old December 20, 2021, 03:55 PM   #47
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M1 Garands and M14s never jammed.

My Uncle Jimmy from back in da 'Nam said his squad lost at least 10 guys over one tour due to their M16s jamming in firefights. This was in 1965 or '66.

He said it was from that ball-powder crap McNamara insisted on the ammo suppliers using 'cause it was cheaper than extruded propellant.

Never a good day when your mouse gun jams and you have to try fixing it in a rice paddy with Commie x39 rounds flyin' by your head.
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Old December 20, 2021, 06:31 PM   #48
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Not quickly enough for some of the people I once knew. (still after all these years)
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Never a good day when your mouse gun jams and you have to try fixing it in a rice paddy with Commie x39 rounds flyin' by your head.
I'm sincerely sorry that these things happened, they shouldn't have. But let's not misplace the blame. The original design of the rifle and ammo specs are solid. It was when those were modified that the rifle became unreliable. That situation was quickly corrected. And those responsible for the modifications are the ones with blood on their hands, not the rifle.

And the thing most don't want to talk about is that the M14 may have been reliable, but it was a failed experiment too. Had we stayed with the M14 we would have filled a lot more body bags than we have. The AR design has saved more lives than it initially cost.
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Old December 20, 2021, 09:28 PM   #49
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The AR design has saved more lives than it initially cost.
The proof of that statement is the length the design has been in service. Not just here in the USA but around the world. I dont know how many militaries have/still issue the M16 in one form or another. We have continued to upgrade and modify it with different stocks, barrel lengths, sights, lights, etc.

Now add in the number of civilian AR platforms in existence and the number just keeps growing…..why? It just plain works as a light combat rifle. Can it make good hits at 1000 yard, nope. Aint designed to do that.

Low recoil, high capacity, fast handling, easy manual of arms, good ability to modify based on needs. Hell, swap uppers and go from a CQB/entry rifle to a relatively long range DMR.

Im keeping mine!!!!
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Old December 20, 2021, 10:09 PM   #50
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Thousands of rounds down range, and I've never had an AR, M4, or M16 jam.
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