Hot 45 colt vs 454 Casul

[tINY]

I was recently told that 45 Colt can do anything that a 454 can do...

...anybody here concur?

I get a measured 1900 fps with a 300gr XTP mags from a 16" carbine. Will 45 colt do that?




-tINY

[USMC Vet]

To that, I say baloney! Whoever told you that has been smoking too much loco weed. That"s like saying the 38 spl is every bit as good as the 357 mag.
two completely different cartridges and power levels.

[azredhawk44]

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=385776

I hear ya, tiny.

I don't buy it either.

Yeah, you have some of the early "Keith" .44 special loads that came close to .44 magnum, and the .38/44 loads for N-frame .38's the rivaled the .357, and Casull's early .45 Colt experiments... but it always comes back to a longer case to provide more friction on the bullet to avoid tying up the cylinder from recoil, and to provide more powder storage, and to provide more room for managing pressure.

[Ole 5 hole group]

Well, the 45 Colt can do a lot more than most people think, at very low pressures. The 454 with gobs more pressure can push the same big bullets a little faster, so with the right bullet, it can do more - not a lot more but more. If one thinks they need something with a little more killing power than the 45 Colt has to offer, you might want to skip the 454, and go right to the 475 Linebaugh. The Linebaugh offers a lot more than the 454 and the felt recoil level at the top end is about the same.

[14cm]

Someone has been hitting the crack pipe. i have both, 454 casull in a m83 freedom arms and a 45lc in a blachawk hunter. i do alot of shooting of heavy loads in both

45 colt 300gr xtp = 1300 fps that is crankin from this gun.

454 casull 300gr xtp mag 1760 fps that is a bit on the warm side also

the big reason is the pressure that the casull can run at,

45lc 30k max
the casull can run in the mid 50k's

colt will kill anything in the usa, the casull will kill it twice.

[darkgael]

45 Colt do everything that the 454 Casull will do?
It just aint happenin.
Pete

[14cm]

as for the 475 linebaugh, you might want to check your numbers.

The 475 Hornady factory load uses a 400 grain XTP-Mag bullet at a MV of 1300 fps and ME of 1501 ft. lbs.

The 454 Hornady factory load uses a 300 grain XTP-Mag bullet at a MV of 1650 fps and ME of 1814 ft. lbs.

yes i am partial to the 454 lol

[SwampYankee]

That's like saying the 38 spl is every bit as good as the 357 mag.

With a fast powder, I have no problem loading .38 Special cartridges to .357 Magnum levels. But you cannot put those cartridges in anything but a .357 handgun.

I'm not sure you could do that with a .45 Colt and a .454 Casull but maybe. The problem is, you cannot shoot a .45 Colt cartridge pumped that high in anything but a .454 Casull handgun.

[mavracer]

put in a five shot format ie converted redhawk or blackhawk like Bowen or Linebaugh offer you can load the old gal(45 Colt) to the same pressure as the Casull so that just leaves the capacity which is in favor of the Casull.loaded like this they'll be maybe a couple hundred fps difference.

just checked Linebaughs websight in the artical about high pressure loads he claims 1960FPS with a 225gr bullet from a 7 1/2" revolver with an oversize cyl

[AlaskaMike]

It depends on how you define "everything that the .454 Casull can do". If you define it as a 300 grain bullet at 1700 fps, then of course not--not even close.

However, if you define it as the ability to take most any game animal in North America, then a hot loaded .45 Colt in an appropriately strong revolver can easily do that.

It all depends on your perspective.

Mike

[CraigC]

Crack pipe huh? Interesting, let us hold off on the personal insults. It's obvious that tINY has never read beyond the current Hodgdon manual and the question posed here is loaded. For starters, why don't we put it in the proper perspective??? I made the statement and stand by it. Let us not forget that the .454 was developed in .45 brass and that Dick Casull pushed 260's to 2000fps in .45Colt brass. Perspective? I was doubting the reasoning behind rechambering a particular .45Colt rifle to .454Casull because a weapon strong enough to handle the .454 can be loaded to that level in .45Colt brass. So no, I was not comparing SAAMI standard .45Colt (15,000psi) or Ruger only .45Colt (32,000psi) to the .454. Nor have I ever smoked crack. I was comparing custom five shot revolver loads that generate between 45,000 and 55,000psi. Loads also exist in that range for the box stock .45 Redhawk. In this realm we see 260's at 1700fps, 300's at 1600fps, 340's at 1500fps and 395's approaching 1300fps. Sixgun velocities. How far, exactly, is this behind the .454? What do those extra couple FPS gain you?
http://www.singleactions.com/files/FiveShot45Colts.pdf

...and the pricelist shows what to expect from Linebaugh's custom five shots:
http://www.customsixguns.com/pricing.htm

I get a measured 1900 fps with a 300gr XTP mags from a 16" carbine. Will 45 colt do that?

Uh, yeah! In rifles, if we know where to look, we see that modern 1892's are strong enough for loads in this pressure range as well. In this realm we see that 260's at 2200fps, 300's at 2000fps, 335's at 1900fps are possible.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/pa...ltlevergun.htm

[AlaskaMike]

So no, I was not comparing SAAMI standard .45Colt (15,000psi) or Ruger only .45Colt (32,000psi) to the .454.

Ahh--sorry Craig, I'd assumed Ruger level loads in my earlier post. The five-shot revolver load makes it a whole different comparison, and I totally agree with you that it then becomes very comparable to .454 Casull.

Mike

[14cm]

I stand corrected.

the colt when loaded to 30,000 over saami spec in a $3000 custom revolver can do anything a factory load from a $500 454 super redhawk can do.

[SwampYankee]

I stand corrected.

the colt when loaded to 30,000 over saami spec in a $3000 custom revolver can do anything a factory load from a $500 454 super redhawk can do.

No, you are just not paying attention. A 454 Super Redhawk can shoot .45 Colt. Any .45 Colt. So if you get a very fast powder, you can very likely load a .45 Colt cartridge to 65,000 psi - the 454 max pressure. You can fire that round in your gun and get performance close to .454 Casull. As was said earlier, the Casull has more case capacity so you will get more "power" for less pressure with Casull, but you can make it pretty darn close. Same thing with .38 Special and .357 Magnum.

What determines the "power" (or velocity, ME, etc) of your round is the capacity of you handgun not to blow up when loaded really hot. I could make a super-fast .32 ACP round, but there is no gun made to hold it without blowing up.

This type of activity is generally not advisable because if you put that super hot round in the wrong gun - KA BOOM! But it can be done.

[darkgael]

Evidently I'll have to rethink my "no way" opinion.
Yet...I'd like some clarification, if possible.

Loads also exist in that range for the box stock .45 Redhawk.

Where can I find that data? I don't mean that in a critical, doubting way; I'd like to know and I don't.
About some other ideas - remember, I'm fond of the .45 Colt, handload it, shoot it, carry it.
When I read

I was comparing custom five shot revolver loads

or

A 454 Super Redhawk can shoot .45 Colt. Any .45 Colt. So if you get a very fast powder, you can very likely load a .45 Colt cartridge to 65,000 psi - the 454 max pressure. You can fire that round in your gun and get performance close to .454 Casull.

my first thought is: if I need a custom gun or something like a .454 SRH to shoot the "hot .45 Colt", is it really a .45 Colt any longer? Is it just the fact that the case says .45 Colt on it that determines what it really is?
Pete

[mavracer]

I could make a super-fast .32 ACP round, but there is no gun made to hold it without blowing up.

Don't be too sure of that Ruger made a limited run of Blackhawks for Buckeye sport with 32-20 and 32 h&r cylinders the 32 h&r will shoot 32acp and the cylinder walls are thicker than anything discussed in this thread.After all Its built on the same full size BH frame.

[SwampYankee]

is it really a .45 Colt any longer?

Thats a good point. And I suppose why the 454 Casull was developed. But it is in a .45 Colt case, so technically I would have to say yes.

Ruger made a limited run of Blackhawks for Buckeye sport with 32-20 and 32 h&r cylinders

I didn't realize that. But how does it work? The .32 ACP is rimless, 32 H&R is rimmed. Does it take special moonclips?

[14cm]

this is for the colt hot rodders, are you using colt brass or cut down casull brass? also what powders do you use to get top speed? I load a bunch of
H110/296

[GeauxTide]

454 Casull uses small rifle primers and cases are designed for 55,000psi, so we might consider this an apples to oranges comparison. My recoil limit right now is a 275LFN at 1200, so my hat is off to you fellas with hands of stone.

[mavracer]

I didn't realize that. But how does it work? The .32 ACP is rimless, 32 H&R is rimmed. Does it take special moonclips?

the 32 acp is semi rimmed it has enough rim to work in most 32 h&r revolvers I wouldn't reccomend it but it'd sure be trying it in a pinch.my brother has the 32 Buckeye (the match to my 38/40 10mm) and the cyl walls are crazy thick I'd be curious as to what pressure it'd take to break it.

[CraigC]

The core of the original discussion revolved around rechambering a .45Colt rifle to .454Casull. The point being that if it was strong enough to handle the rechambering, the rechambering really wouldn't be necessary as you could get comparable performance with the .45Colt. I was simply questioning the reasoning behind spending $150 to rechamber a $300 rifle. We only look to the custom five shot Rugers for loading data. So there is no reason to compare $2500 custom .45's to $500 Super Redhawks, although that discussion can go a long way.

Where can I find that data?

Brian Pearce and John Taffin have written about the .45 Redhawk and printed loading data. Searching http://www.riflemagazine.com would probably yield Pearce's articles.

are you using colt brass or cut down casull brass? also what powders do you use to get top speed? I load a bunch of
H110/296

Always with .45Colt brass. Federal was the favorite before Starline came onto the scene. H110 and 296 always yield the highest velocities.

...is it really a .45 Colt any longer?

Why not? It was the grand old .45 that started it all. In strong guns, it is simply loaded to its potential.

It's worth mentioning that very few custom builders build .454's. Most opt for five-shot .45's because it does everything that needs doing. Most factory .454 loads are actually in the 50-55,000psi range, not 65,000.

[Sevens]

thread drift!

the 32 acp is semi rimmed it has enough rim to work in most 32 h&r revolvers I wouldn't reccomend it but it'd sure be trying it in a pinch.my brother has the 32 Buckeye (the match to my 38/40 10mm) and the cyl walls are crazy thick I'd be curious as to what pressure it'd take to break it.

Easier to find than the Buckeye convertible is your basic Blackhawk in .30 Carbine. This is a 44 ounce (unloaded) six-shot revolver. There's more meat in this SOB than in an NFL lineman.

If you want to get stupid with a revolver, this is likely a good test platform.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

OK... I load some "very hot" 45 Colt loads for my 10" Contender for hunting use only... hot enough, that the trigger gaurd makes my knuckle bleed after 15-20 shots... & at that point, I think they are plenty good for hunting most anything, yet... I hope anyway, that I'm nowhere close to 454 Casull max pressures, as they are not safe in the Contender...

I don't personally load max loads for the Casull, as IMO, it reaches the point of diminishing returns ( too much more powder needed, for only a little velocity gain ) my 454 Casull is a Ruger Alaskan, & I think my "max" loads in the 45 Colt are the same range as my "normal" loads in 454 Casull...

IMO with the selection of powders available, pressures & velocities can be kept reasonably close, even though this is "possible" I don't recommend it for 99% of reloaders, but I do think it's possible, but to me not practical, since I own both cartridge & guns...

[goodspeed(TPF)]

I was recently told that 45 Colt can do anything that a 454 can do...

...anybody here concur?

I get a measured 1900 fps with a 300gr XTP mags from a 16" carbine. Will 45 colt do that?




-tINY

tINY is offline Report Post

Short answer:

Yes, it can.*

[Ole 5 hole group]

Nice to see you chime in CraigC, as you're always spot on the money. I was also referring to the 5 shot 45 Colt and should have checked this sight sooner to lend a little support - not to infer that you ever needed support. One of the many “custom” revolvers out there capable of running the hot-rod 45 Colt is the BFR. You can get it in the precision center model as a “full custom” or just purchase the “regular” 454 model and shoot both cartridges, if you have a mind to. Price is a lot more reasonable in those configurations but owning a “custom” made by the Masters or maybe the FA is a world onto itself. Another option for the 454 for reloaders is using cut down SW460 brass and then using either the Winchester Large Pistol Primer or CCI350’s. For those looking at ME as being the grail for killing power – well, it’s a part of the equation, but increasing bullet diameter with corresponding heavier bullet weight will always increase killing power more, a lot more, than looking at the ME numbers of lesser calibers.