Handguns with barrels not tilting up when being racked

[bac1023]

No, it tilts down. So does the Browning Hi-Power and the entire CZ-75 family of pistols.

Uh, if the barrel tilts down at the breech, the muzzle tilts up. I’m quite familiar with the Browning style locked breech design.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by DT Guy

I think the point everyone is trying to make, Aguila, is that the rear of the barrel tilts down, and when that happens the front of the barrel tilts UP.

That's how I'm understanding the question, at least.

It becomes obvious that some people think of it that way but the reality is when the rear of a barrel tilts down, the front (muzzle end) doesn't tilt up. It stays at the same elevation relative to the frame and slide.

I've been shooting 1911s since 1967 and I have never encountered any description of the 1911 (or any similar action pistol) that describes the barrel as tilting up.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by bac1023

Uh, if the barrel tilts down at the breech, the muzzle tilts up. I’m quite familiar with the Browning style locked breech design.

Um ... no, that's not how things work.

[PzGren]

It becomes obvious that some people think of it that way but the reality is when the rear of a barrel tilts down, the front (muzzle end) doesn't tilt up. It stays at the same elevation relative to the frame and slide.

I've been shooting 1911s since 1967 and I have never encountered any description of the 1911 (or any similar action pistol) that describes the barrel as tilting up.
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Physics will not allow tilting only on one end but has to be over the whole plane, even if not clearly visible to the casual observer. The modified Browning lock up has the barrel tilt up visibly. If you want to be proven wrong I can make a photo of a SIG Sauer P220 and prove you wrong.

[PzGren]

To put it simply, the John Moses Browning locking system with the link will pull the front of the barrel down with the slide stop after a little travel and the front of the barrel will be pulled down after the barrel and slide separate and be in line with the bushing, which is tightly fitted to assure accuracy. The modified Browning lock up is working very differently, has no barrel bushing and tilts over the whole plane.

[bac1023]

Um ... no, that's not how things work.

Sounds like you missed physics in school. It’s all good though. Not sure I’ve ever heard anyone argue this part of the Browning tilting barrel design before.

[Jim Watson]

The breech links down but the slide is moving back so the muzzle rocks up on the fulcrum of the bushing.

[44 AMP]

Take your 1911A1 and lock the slide back. Now look at the barrel, Is it perfectly parallel with the slide or the frame?? It is not.

No, its rarely described that way, but it is the way it works. Pull down one end of a steel rod, the other end moves up. Might not move much, or enough to be easily noticed, but it has to move, or the barrel will be bent, and we know that's not happening.

[bac1023]

One of my favorite non-tilting barrel designs. These are delayed blowbacks, so the barrel is fixed.

[5whiskey]

Clarified that a bit.

Yet the 1911 JMB barrel linkage is quite successful in the bullseye game as I understand, and it is a barrel tilting breach lock design (we're so jammed up on whether the barrel tilts up or down I'm not even going to go there).

This IS an interesting question. Obviously a fixed barrel HAS to have more potential mechanical accuracy potential if we exclude all other factors. But other factors come into play. The venerable Sig P210 is world renowned for accuracy... and it uses the JMB breech lock system (which tilts the barrel).

[44 AMP]

But other factors come into play.

It is those other factors, ALONG WITH the design of the action that make the pistol accurate, or not.

Don't forget to include the quality of execution along with the design features. Its a total package, sights, trigger, barrel, how they fit and function together, and then the ammunition is a whole different layer on top of all that.

And then there is the condition of each individual specimen, something one should not take as indicative of every gun of that design, but people often do.

I have a Colt Govt Model that will put 5 shots into one ragged hole at 25 yds. I had a 1943 Remington Rand 1911A1 that would consistently group 8 inches at that same distance.

Fixed barrel guns have the potential to be quite accurate. Few are, because the majority of fixed barrel pistols are models that have coarse sights and poor triggers. There are, of course, exceptions.

[Jim Watson]

The usual ISSF center fire is a blowback .32 which is certainly an exception.

[PzGren]

The SIG Hammerli P240 was available in .22 l.r., .32 S&W Long WC, and .38 Special WC and was winning a lot of matches back in the day. In the U.S. a few Bullseye shooters have converted the .32 S&W Long to .32 ACP, since nobody imported the H&N bullets and the .32 ACP is as accurate.

While the P240 is a good example of a centerfire pistol that is not locked, the .38 S&W Special Wadcutter is not developing a lot of recoil force.

[JohnKSa]

No, it tilts down. So does the Browning Hi-Power and the entire CZ-75 family of pistols.

The back tilts down, the front tilts up. Most would say that if the front of the barrel tilts up, the barrel tilts up.

To say otherwise would mean that aiming at a target that is above the gun requires tilting the barrel down.

...the front (muzzle end) doesn't tilt up. It stays at the same elevation relative to the frame and slide.

Elevating something is one thing, tilting it is another thing entirely.

What you are saying is that it doesn't pivot in the middle and that is correct, but by any normal definition of the word 'tilt', if one end of an object tilts and the other does not then it must bend.

To tilt merely means to incline an object. That can be done by lowering one end and raising the other, pivoting the object in the middle, raising one end AND lowering the other, raising one end and then raising the other end more, etc., etc.

[Jim Watson]

The article I found says the P240 .38 is recoil operated, slide stop/cam track tipping barrel. The .22 and .32 are blowback.

I wonder how many are still in use vs the various forward magazine .32s.
The good old P208 .22 has sure outlasted the modernical P280.

[bac1023]

Here’s an interesting locked breech pistol that I recently acquired. The barrel does not tilt.

[bac1023]

Here are some more delayed blowback pistols that use a roller delay. To my knowledge, they are the only roller delayed blowback pistol models in the world. All are German. It’s a very intricate design and not cheap to produce. No tilting barrels here.

Korriphila HSP701, HK P9S, Geiger GRP, and Korth PRS

[PzGren]

Brian,
the CZ52 used the roller lock behind the iron curtain. I had one of those with the normal 17 lb. trigger.

[bac1023]

Brian,
the CZ52 used the roller lock behind the iron curtain. I had one of those with the normal 17 lb. trigger.

Andy, the CZ52 is a locked breech design. It’s quite different from those blowbacks. I know in Germany they call them a roller lock, but they are delayed blowbacks.

The CZ52 uses rollers to lock the breech momentarily.

I don’t own a CZ52 any longer, but the Delta Top Gun uses the CZ’s roller locked breech design. It is a lot different than the delayed blowbacks I posted above.

It’s also a gun with a non tilting barrel…

[rmh3481]

Im sitting here racking my Hk P9, and the barrel doesnt tilt at all? Is it supposed to?

[bac1023]

The HK P9 is a blowback. No barrel tilt

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper wrote that the P9 was made largely out of sheet metal stampings and plastic, "then they put the money they saved back into an elaborate barrel extension and roller bolt."

[bac1023]

Yes Jim. The quality is in the internals. Outwardly, it’s a fairly cheaply made pistol. Inside it’s very robust and complex.

[tangolima]

Walther p38.
Beretta 92.
Steyr Hahn.
Mauser c96.
Femaru m37.
Nambo type 14.
Lugar parabellum.
...

There are more. But they don't seem particularly more accurate.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[5whiskey]

Of note, the Beretta 92 was famous for the locking block breaking after thousands of rounds during its first years. Fairly, this was long ago rectified. They are accurate pistols. The head law enforcement firearms instructor for NC shot a Beretta 92 in competition for many years, and did quite well with it.

I still don't see many Berettas that are just inherently more accurate than a quality Glock, CZ, or good 1911.