Dead end handgun designs.

[SIGSHR]

The New Jersey State Police adopted the P7, the troopers didn't like it, required a totally different technique to draw, the safety features "greatly exaggerated", they needed the heat shield, otherwise training and qualification became uncomfortable.

[Ricklin]

Having owned both a CZ 52 and a CZ 82, the CZ 52 is a good example of a dead end design. Perhaps that makes it a bad example? Sure not a great pistol, but in an interesting caliber. About the only similarities with the pistol that replaced it was the fact it was also a magazine fed semi auto pistol.

[44 AMP]

I'd like to know my pistol is loaded when I pick it up, with my G19 empty vs. full is quite apparent.
I like the fact that the ammo is a big part of the weight of my carry piece. That strikes me as efficient, and I love efficiency.

Let' be clear on something, are you actually telling us that you determine if a pistol is loaded or not, that there is a round in the chamber, or not by the weight of the gun in your hand??

You made NO mention of checking the chamber, and not physically/visually checking the chamber doesn't seem efficient to me, unless the efficiency you are seeking is an increase in the odds you will have an accident with possibly fatal consequences.

There are a lot of us who can tell by the heft of the some guns if it has a full (or nearly) full load of ammo on board, but no one can tell by the weight if one of those rounds is in the chamber, or not. And, I don't know anyone, myself included who can with complete confidence state a gun is unloaded by the weight in the hand. ONE ROUND doesn't weigh much, not enough for me to feel, and one round, in the chamber, when you don't think it is, can be deadly.

If it seems like I am hammering on this point, I am. Not for you, or to change the way you do things, but for everyone else on the forum who might read this and think doing it the way you wrote it is a good idea.

It's not.

[Trevor]

Forgotten Weapons has posted a video: Gas Delayed Blowback Pistols: A Tour of the System. Are odd mechanical operating systems for you?

[rc]

isn't the CZ 52 roller delayed like some machine guns?

[Armybrat]

The Remington Model 51 was/is a nice quality pistol, but expensive to manufacture.
This .380 was carried by my wife’s grandpa from the 1920s to the 1940s.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/att...8&d=1695339550

[PzGren]

isn't the CZ 52 roller delayed like some machine guns?

The CZ52 has the roller locking system that was used in the Rheinmetall MG42 and picked up by CETME in the G3 again. H&K came to own the roller lock patent and successfully sued CETME but CZ was behind the iron curtain at the time.

The SIG Sauer Trailside was a cheap and simplified knock-off with less internal parts than the Hammerli 212, which is based on the 1936 Walther Olympia Jaegerpistole.

You get what you pay for.



Copying is another form of flattery. Sauer & Sohn based their Trophy line of double action revolvers on S&W's lock work.

[Jim Watson]

Isn't the Hammerli Excesse just a Trailiside under a different badge?

[micromontenegro]

Isn't the Hammerli Excesse just a Trailiside under a different badge?

More like a 208S without bridge sights and a better barrel.

[PzGren]

The Hammerli Excess was built as a cheaper version of the Walther Olympia, which Hammerli produced under license since 1952. The Hammerli Walther Olympia morphed from the 200 eventually to the Hammerli International, which could either be a 208 version with adjustable match grips, or a 211 version with sporter grips, the .22 short was the 210. The 215 was a slightly cheaper version without the polished sides and a couple of machining steps for the front sight omitted. The 208S and 215S have a larger trigger guard and the trigger is adjustable for length.

The Excesse and Trailside are indeed both economy versions of the Hammerli International and closest to the 212 Jägerpistole, missing the rear sight bridge.

208

210

[44 AMP]

Seems to me that as long as someone, somewhere is producing a "knock off" or cheaper version or even a perfect clone, one can't say the design is a dead end.

I will exclude historical reproductions, simply because they are just that.

Personally, I put "dead end designs" into more than one group. Some designs that have died out were simply poor designs, others were complicated designs that had some commercial success, but failed because market interest and demands changed and the design could not be economically produced and, or , could not be updated or upgraded to continue as a viable product.

The "Luger" is a good example of one group. Hugo Borchardt designed and was making a somewhat successful semi auto pistol, Georg Luger redesigned and improved it, creating a pistol that enjoyed world wide sales, and equipped several nations militaries for about 40 years or so. Then things shifted and simpler, cheaper to produce designs eclipsed the Luger. The design had gone as far as it could, and expired as a commercial/military arm, replaces by newer designs, firing the same rounds.

A couple of times, the P08 design came back as a nostalgia item, but cost vs sales killed them off after a few years limited production.

I've had German P.08s and I currently have a lovely Luger, made of stainless steel, in Texas, under the Stoeger name. I keep it as I have a fondness for "oddities".

[2damnold4this]

isn't the CZ 52 roller delayed like some machine guns?

The CZ 52 is roller locked like the MG42. The barrel, like the barrel on the MG42, stays locked to the bolt or slide by the rollers and they recoil together a short distance before the rollers unlock.

Guns like the G3 and MP5 are roller delayed blowback. The rollers are forced out while the firing pin is forward giving time for pressures to drop but the barrel doesn't move.

[PzGren]

"Hugo Borchardt designed and was making a somewhat successful semi auto pistol, Georg Luger redesigned and improved it,"

I would like to add that Hugo Borchardt, born Prussian, had emigrated to the U.S. at the age of 16 and went back to Europe but also returned to the U.S. to work as a consultant here. He also worked for Ludwig Loewe, the German Jewish philanthrope who owned DWM, had acquired Mauser and founded FN in Belgium, while his brother was on the board of Vickers in England, which explains how Vickers came to make Parabellum pistols.

Ludwig Loewe was very much interested in discussing the American industrial manufacturing standards with Borchardt and took advantage of any advanced methods.

Back to the subject; the typical German Flobert action that was built by dozens of companies in Suhl by the hundred thousands for over half a century has finally run out of steam.

Still something I cherish, though.

[Aguila Blanca]

The Hudson semi-auto pistol. I saw it at the SHOT show the first year the company started showing prototypes. I think they came back the next year, still showing prototypes, and then I never heard anything more about the company or the pistol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_H9

[The Happy kaboomer]

That butt ugly Henry revolver.

[gnappi]

I'd put the original Coonan .357 mag right at the top of my list, a close second would be the Springfield Omega.

The Coonan mags jammed, their extended barrel hood broke off and the extractors also broke.

The Omega's dual extractors launched brass right into the face, and extractors broke also.

Both are long gone from my safe :-)

[stuckinthe60s]

whitney wolverine.
junk-o-matic.

[Nathan]

This brings tears to my eyes…

What you are discussing are End Of Life guns due to End Of Supply from the major gun makers.

These are fundamentally any gun with a drawing set that cannot be machined or formed as drawn and thrown together.

Unfortunately, this is changing casting/forging/swaging with final machining and then fitting until you have a functional gun.

Today, parts are stamped/MIM/machined/tumbled and then slapped together. The designs have to have a higher level of robustness because the people putting it together, despite their best intentions cannot polish the junk parts enough to make it work.

On the positive side we have companies like Dan Wesson taking the high road and rewriting the 1911 drawing set to the machine, assemble and shoot level. I hope more, including S&W revolvers will take this high road.

We have most companies taking the low road. That is, let’s make something that looks like something good with cheaper materials, processes and labor. Maybe it will be good enough, if we throw in some swag….sold for $300-$500

Or overmarketed guns like the Glock lineup, Sig plastic guns, ….that is decent $300-$500 guns marked up to $500-$800 due to swag bag, marketing, fanboi marketing(yes, many YouTubers are paid to say what is crap is good…..not organic)

EOL firearms: 60’s-90’s s&w revolvers; 3 screw Ruger SA revolvers; hand made double rifles; combination guns; attractive bluing; attractive chrome; classic military rifles; classic hand crafted hunting rifles

Oddly EOL guns: most 40 s&w guns; most DAO pistols; Single Shot Pistols (why are they dying?); 6 shot 22 revolvers (who needs a big 10 shot!)

[Kestrel4k]

Surprised to not see the Nagant gas-seal M1895 revolver listed/nominated - and I /like/ revolvers. :-/

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ldvns...tml51g69l&dl=0