Combat shooting and range facilities

Webleymkv · June 12, 2015, 02:18 AM

I've noticed over the last few years that a growing number of people seem to be stressing the importance of what I will call "advanced techniques" (for lack of a better term) such as shooting at speed, shooting from retention, shooting at very close range, shooting from unconventional positions, shooting at moving targets, etc. While I don't question the value of these "advanced techniques" it would seem to me that, like almost any other skill, they would require regular practice to maintain.

The predicament I find myself in, and I suspect this is not uncommon, is that I have yet to find a facility nearby that will allow me to practice these "advanced techniques." I live in town and thus do not have private land to shoot on, so I am restricted to public ranges. The problem is that nearly all of the public ranges in my area (and any reasonable distance) have rules about minimum shooting distance, stationary paper targets, rapid fire, etc. which, as far as I've been able to determine, make practicing "advanced techniques" pretty much impossible. My question then to people teaching and advocating "advanced techniques" is how is a person to build and maintain proficiency after receiving training when limited range facilities are available?

AK103K · June 12, 2015, 04:35 AM

Dry fire and airsoft offer two ways to practice, although they dont offer much for you in respect to shooting a "live" gun. You still need to practice with live ammo at some point.

I think much of what needs practiced can be done with dry practice in your home or yard. Airsoft actually lets you practice things you cant with a real gun, and I think its an invaluable tool. Many still seem to think they are toys, but in reality, they are, or can be, an important training tool.

Still, you do need live fire to help you with shooting/controlling the gun and being comfortable with a live gun in your hands while doing things. You dont get that any other way.

Unfortunately, as you mentioned, many, if not most ranges, prohibit any kind of realistic practice, and if thats all you have available, youre pretty much stuck.

Whats is kind of scary is, there are a lot of people who only have access to that type of range, and base their skills on how they shoot there. I know quite a few people who carry a gun, who have never drawn and fired them with live rounds. Shooting quickly and accurately, also seems to be a challenge.

MrBorland · June 12, 2015, 06:11 AM

In addition to dry fire, start shooting your local IDPA matches. It's a game, not SD training, but you'll get the opportunity to do many of the things you can't at most ranges.

Also, once you start participating, ask around to find out where others practice - you might find there is, in fact, a facility that's been under your radar. Often, these are private, and/or don't advertise by choice.

g.willikers · June 12, 2015, 07:18 AM

In addition the advice already given, there's plenty of things to practice at even the most restrictive of ranges.
Like firing a gun dry, doing a quick reload and continuing to fire.
Using one or two rounds per mag or speed loader, so as to not violate the usual no rapid firing rule.
Another is transitions, using multiple targets on a single backing.
Say a six inch circle above an eight inch one, for example, to simulate an adversary even when humanoid targets are prohibited.
Or two six inch circles side by side to simulate a hostage situation.
Then there's one handed practice, off hand practice, single round snap shooting.
And lots of other useful things you can probably come up with.
No need to despair, just use your noodle.

**OldMarksman** · June 12, 2015, 07:48 AM

It is a great question, and no, it is not at all uncommon.

My nearby indoor range does not have a peed of fire restriction, but they do not permit drawing from holster, and one must stand still facing the target.

I have been fortunate enough to join a range not to far away that has combat shooting facilities.

I also believe in some of the other suggestions. Practicing drawing on the move in the house without ammunition is probably a good idea.

If I could obtain an Airsoft gun like my carry piece, I would do so in a heartbeat.

garryc · June 12, 2015, 09:21 AM

Ask Tatsuya Sakai about training with Airsoft. He trained with Airsoft and won the 2004 real steel challenge at Lake Piru, CA. No guns in Japan, he used Airsoft.

serf 'rett · June 12, 2015, 09:45 AM

Find out if there are any IDPA matches in your area.

http://www.idpa.com/compete/clubsearch

psalm7 · June 12, 2015, 03:04 PM

It would be good if you knew someone in a rural area that would let you shoot . I shoot in my yard , set up blue plastic 55 gallon barrels as obsticals , use torso targets , shoot any dstance , practice room entry , use diferent color balloons for frindley/hostile targets and I use to have a old car I could shoot from but someone stoped and wanted to buy it for parts . I am limited to how far I can shoot Sniper rifles and have to go to a range to stretch them out .

**JohnKSa** · June 12, 2015, 07:05 PM

One solution that would let you get in some live fire "practice" is to get involved in a competition where the things you want to practice are actually required.

You may not get to practice as much as you'd like, but at least while you're shooting the match you can get some practice in. It is also possible that before and after the match you may be able to shoot some practice stages--especially if you help out with the match.

hbhobby · June 13, 2015, 12:19 PM

I am curious what an air soft will do that my real gun will not?
I have never used one but I live in an area where I have awesome range availability with no restrictions

AK103K · June 13, 2015, 01:04 PM

Quote:

I am curious what an air soft will do that my real gun will not?

It allows you to practice against a live opponent, and you both live to learn something.

They also allow you to practice pretty much anywhere, and using your normal carry gear (holsters, mag pouches, etc).

**JohnKSa** · June 13, 2015, 08:29 PM

Quote:

I am curious what an air soft will do that my real gun will not?
I have never used one but I live in an area where I have awesome range availability with no restrictions.

Even if you have no range limitations where you are, Airsoft will provide a way to learn advanced techniques with virtually no chance of injury and no chance at all of death.

hartcreek · June 14, 2015, 01:54 AM

Find a place that has cowboy action shooting matches. The local range that has cowboy action meets has the action gallery available for anyone that wants to use it.

g.willikers · June 14, 2015, 10:27 AM

Unfortunately, the use of the action match ranges on the off days is rare.
One nearby club only allows them to be used when there's an official present.
And, as one can imagine, they are hard to come by during the week, the only time the ranges aren't being used for matches.
Another club used to allow free use of those ranges, until some members with less skill than ambition messed things up for the rest of us.
Now a range officer must be present for their use.
Same problem as the other place.
Hurrah for airguns in the garage.

T. O'Heir · June 14, 2015, 01:10 PM

Airsoft guns are toys and have nothing whatever to do with real firearms.
Dry firing is a long recognized training technique for practicing breathing, trigger control and sight picture. Ditto for air pistols. Far more useful than toys.
IDPA/ISPC and CAS are shooting games and nothing more.
"...shooting at speed, shooting from retention, shooting at very close range, shooting from unconventional positions, shooting at moving targets, etc..." None of which make the least difference if you can't hit what you're shooting at. Accuracy beats speed and all the other game playing techniques every time.
"...people who carry a gun, who have never drawn and fired them with live rounds..." How'd they get a licence? They're dangerous to themselves and everybody around them.
"...when there's an official present..." Become said official.

AK103K · June 14, 2015, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Airsoft guns are toys and have nothing whatever to do with real firearms.

You keep saying this, and from the comment, I have to assume youve never used a good one in any capacity were are discussing here.

"Good" aisrsoft guns are no more toys than real guns are. They allow you to work on problems you cant with a "live" gun, and do so using all the gear you would normally used with a real gun.

Even from simply practicing "the basics" indoors or around the yard, they are more than capable of acceptable accuracy, even at longer ranges than you might think. I have an electric MP5 airsoft gun with a red dot mounted, that will routinely put its rounds (5-6 out of 10) into the 1" diameter holes in my burn barrel at 25-30 yards. It will also easily hit 12" diameter trees at the brush line, 50+ yards from my porch.

g.willikers · June 14, 2015, 02:03 PM

Somewhat realistic indoor practice has long been available with those plastic cartridges powered by primers, for use in regular firearms.
And the noise and air pollution that accompanies them.
The modern airguns are even better without the shortcomings.

If there's any doubt to their effectiveness, check out all the run 'n gun and 3gun folks who use them on youtube.
My doubt as to their effectiveness was erased when, many years ago, one of the top local shooters showed me his airgun practice range in his house.
He claimed that regular use of it was one of the reasons he routinely scored so well at our matches.
I followed suit, and it proved a very worthwhile way to get in a lot of useful trigger time.
Especially over the bad weather months.
When match weather rolled around, all those months of airgun practice really proved their worth.

rburch · June 14, 2015, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Airsoft guns are toys and have nothing whatever to do with real firearms.
Dry firing is a long recognized training technique for practicing breathing, trigger control and sight picture. Ditto for air pistols. Far more useful than toys.

I'm confused by you opinion. Why would a $19 bb pistol i picked up in walmart, be "far more useful" for my training than the $160 airsoft pistol that is the same size, has the same grip, and similar weight to my carry pistol?

The airsoft locks into all of my holsters, the mags fit in my pouches, the slide reciprocates with each shot and locks back on the last round.

I know of many Police and Armed Security that use airsoft guns as a basic part of their firearms training.

Are they also just playing with toys?

**Frank Ettin** · June 14, 2015, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

Airsoft guns are toys and have nothing whatever to do with real firearms....

Quote:

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

...IDPA/ISPC and CAS are shooting games and nothing more....

You continue to post this sort of tripe and continue to be debunked by folks who know better.

We can can only wonder upon what training/experience you base your opinions. Unless you can provide support for you opinions, there is no reason to take them seriously.

Skans · June 15, 2015, 01:52 PM

The combat shooting courses I've taken have been conducted on remote private property that was set up for shooting. My bet is that this is more the norm than practicing at any public or semi-public range.

**OldMarksman** · June 15, 2015, 02:12 PM

What I know supports Skans' comment. Clubs (one probably has to be member to use a holster) or dedicated training facilities. Insurance rule figure in.

**OldMarksman** · June 15, 2015, 02:18 PM

Posted by T. O'Heir:

Quote:

"...shooting at speed, shooting from retention, shooting at very close range, shooting from unconventional positions, shooting at moving targets, etc..." None of which make the least difference if you can't hit what you're shooting at. Accuracy beats speed and all the other game playing techniques every time.

You have to be able to hit, but when it comes to defending oneself, neither speed, shooting from retention, hitting moving targets, nor shooting at very close range is a "game playing technique".

June 12, 2015, 02:18 AM	#1
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,447	Combat shooting and range facilities I've noticed over the last few years that a growing number of people seem to be stressing the importance of what I will call "advanced techniques" (for lack of a better term) such as shooting at speed, shooting from retention, shooting at very close range, shooting from unconventional positions, shooting at moving targets, etc. While I don't question the value of these "advanced techniques" it would seem to me that, like almost any other skill, they would require regular practice to maintain. The predicament I find myself in, and I suspect this is not uncommon, is that I have yet to find a facility nearby that will allow me to practice these "advanced techniques." I live in town and thus do not have private land to shoot on, so I am restricted to public ranges. The problem is that nearly all of the public ranges in my area (and any reasonable distance) have rules about minimum shooting distance, stationary paper targets, rapid fire, etc. which, as far as I've been able to determine, make practicing "advanced techniques" pretty much impossible. My question then to people teaching and advocating "advanced techniques" is how is a person to build and maintain proficiency after receiving training when limited range facilities are available?

June 12, 2015, 07:18 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	In addition the advice already given, there's plenty of things to practice at even the most restrictive of ranges. Like firing a gun dry, doing a quick reload and continuing to fire. Using one or two rounds per mag or speed loader, so as to not violate the usual no rapid firing rule. Another is transitions, using multiple targets on a single backing. Say a six inch circle above an eight inch one, for example, to simulate an adversary even when humanoid targets are prohibited. Or two six inch circles side by side to simulate a hostage situation. Then there's one handed practice, off hand practice, single round snap shooting. And lots of other useful things you can probably come up with. No need to despair, just use your noodle. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

June 12, 2015, 09:45 AM	#7
serf 'rett Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2009 Location: Stuttgart, AR Posts: 1,569	Find out if there are any IDPA matches in your area. http://www.idpa.com/compete/clubsearch __________________ A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part. Last edited by serf 'rett; June 12, 2015 at 09:55 AM.

June 12, 2015, 07:05 PM	#9
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,025	One solution that would let you get in some live fire "practice" is to get involved in a competition where the things you want to practice are actually required. You may not get to practice as much as you'd like, but at least while you're shooting the match you can get some practice in. It is also possible that before and after the match you may be able to shoot some practice stages--especially if you help out with the match. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

June 14, 2015, 10:27 AM	#14
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Unfortunately, the use of the action match ranges on the off days is rare. One nearby club only allows them to be used when there's an official present. And, as one can imagine, they are hard to come by during the week, the only time the ranges aren't being used for matches. Another club used to allow free use of those ranges, until some members with less skill than ambition messed things up for the rest of us. Now a range officer must be present for their use. Same problem as the other place. Hurrah for airguns in the garage. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

June 12, 2015, 04:35 AM	#2
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	Dry fire and airsoft offer two ways to practice, although they dont offer much for you in respect to shooting a "live" gun. You still need to practice with live ammo at some point. I think much of what needs practiced can be done with dry practice in your home or yard. Airsoft actually lets you practice things you cant with a real gun, and I think its an invaluable tool. Many still seem to think they are toys, but in reality, they are, or can be, an important training tool. Still, you do need live fire to help you with shooting/controlling the gun and being comfortable with a live gun in your hands while doing things. You dont get that any other way. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, many, if not most ranges, prohibit any kind of realistic practice, and if thats all you have available, youre pretty much stuck. Whats is kind of scary is, there are a lot of people who only have access to that type of range, and base their skills on how they shoot there. I know quite a few people who carry a gun, who have never drawn and fired them with live rounds. Shooting quickly and accurately, also seems to be a challenge.

June 12, 2015, 06:11 AM	#3
MrBorland Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 2,614	In addition to dry fire, start shooting your local IDPA matches. It's a game, not SD training, but you'll get the opportunity to do many of the things you can't at most ranges. Also, once you start participating, ask around to find out where others practice - you might find there is, in fact, a facility that's been under your radar. Often, these are private, and/or don't advertise by choice.

June 12, 2015, 07:48 AM	#5
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	It is a great question, and no, it is not at all uncommon. My nearby indoor range does not have a peed of fire restriction, but they do not permit drawing from holster, and one must stand still facing the target. I have been fortunate enough to join a range not to far away that has combat shooting facilities. I also believe in some of the other suggestions. Practicing drawing on the move in the house without ammunition is probably a good idea. If I could obtain an Airsoft gun like my carry piece, I would do so in a heartbeat.

June 12, 2015, 09:21 AM	#6
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	Ask Tatsuya Sakai about training with Airsoft. He trained with Airsoft and won the 2004 real steel challenge at Lake Piru, CA. No guns in Japan, he used Airsoft.

June 12, 2015, 03:04 PM	#8
psalm7 Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2014 Location: Middle TN Posts: 543	It would be good if you knew someone in a rural area that would let you shoot . I shoot in my yard , set up blue plastic 55 gallon barrels as obsticals , use torso targets , shoot any dstance , practice room entry , use diferent color balloons for frindley/hostile targets and I use to have a old car I could shoot from but someone stoped and wanted to buy it for parts . I am limited to how far I can shoot Sniper rifles and have to go to a range to stretch them out .

June 13, 2015, 12:19 PM	#10
hbhobby Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2013 Location: Payson Az Posts: 169	I am curious what an air soft will do that my real gun will not? I have never used one but I live in an area where I have awesome range availability with no restrictions

June 14, 2015, 01:54 AM	#13
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	Find a place that has cowboy action shooting matches. The local range that has cowboy action meets has the action gallery available for anyone that wants to use it.

June 14, 2015, 01:10 PM	#15
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Airsoft guns are toys and have nothing whatever to do with real firearms. Dry firing is a long recognized training technique for practicing breathing, trigger control and sight picture. Ditto for air pistols. Far more useful than toys. IDPA/ISPC and CAS are shooting games and nothing more. "...shooting at speed, shooting from retention, shooting at very close range, shooting from unconventional positions, shooting at moving targets, etc..." None of which make the least difference if you can't hit what you're shooting at. Accuracy beats speed and all the other game playing techniques every time. "...people who carry a gun, who have never drawn and fired them with live rounds..." How'd they get a licence? They're dangerous to themselves and everybody around them. "...when there's an official present..." Become said official. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 14, 2015, 02:03 PM	#17
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Somewhat realistic indoor practice has long been available with those plastic cartridges powered by primers, for use in regular firearms. And the noise and air pollution that accompanies them. The modern airguns are even better without the shortcomings. If there's any doubt to their effectiveness, check out all the run 'n gun and 3gun folks who use them on youtube. My doubt as to their effectiveness was erased when, many years ago, one of the top local shooters showed me his airgun practice range in his house. He claimed that regular use of it was one of the reasons he routinely scored so well at our matches. I followed suit, and it proved a very worthwhile way to get in a lot of useful trigger time. Especially over the bad weather months. When match weather rolled around, all those months of airgun practice really proved their worth. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

June 15, 2015, 01:52 PM	#20
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,143	The combat shooting courses I've taken have been conducted on remote private property that was set up for shooting. My bet is that this is more the norm than practicing at any public or semi-public range.

June 15, 2015, 02:12 PM	#21
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	What I know supports Skans' comment. Clubs (one probably has to be member to use a holster) or dedicated training facilities. Insurance rule figure in.