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View Poll Results: Where's the case head when rounds fire? | |||
Against/touching the bolt face as the extractor holds it there. | 15 | 35.71% | |
Some thousandths off the bolt face; the difference between case and chamber headspacing references. | 27 | 64.29% | |
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll |
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May 23, 2019, 02:29 PM | #126 | |
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cw308:
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Ron |
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May 23, 2019, 02:59 PM | #127 | |
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As the poll suggest EDIT ( just looked at the poll , only 30% or so beleave differently then the others rather then half ) . That in it's self makes the conversation interesting to me at least . We all can't be right but some of us have done test that seem to show one thing and base there conclusions on that . Not sure what the others are basing there reasoning on ? How do they say YMMV
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If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; May 23, 2019 at 06:36 PM. |
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May 23, 2019, 03:07 PM | #128 | |
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My cases do not have head space and ever tool I use is not a head space gage. Some reloaders have a digital head space gage that looks just like my dial indicator stands. I have clearance; I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head. So I would say he is reducing the length of the case .002" to off set the length of the chamber. F. Guffey |
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May 23, 2019, 03:09 PM | #129 |
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Here is another lovely cut chamber . I just shot these from a new PA-10 upper I got on Tues . As you can see the pressure is high enough in the chamber to imprint the poor chamber cut onto the case walls . If it can do that it can hold the case forward as well .
FWIW the upper ran just fine but appears to be really hard on brass . I'm going to do a full review thread on this upper in the near future .
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If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; May 23, 2019 at 03:15 PM. |
May 23, 2019, 03:16 PM | #130 | |
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I would say there are reloaders spending too much time making this stuff up. AND there are reloaders that choose to ignore logic and or common sense. And to think this got started with an illustrated cartoon. F. Guffey |
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May 23, 2019, 03:20 PM | #131 | |
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F. Guffey |
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May 23, 2019, 03:45 PM | #132 |
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And then there is the shoulder of the case: Someone is going to have to think.
I say it is impossible to bump the shoulder back, I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full length contact with the case. I should not have to explain 'what it is' you need to think about; |
May 23, 2019, 06:14 PM | #133 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_yN0SESbTA
For whatever it may be worth. Am gonna quess differing physical dimensions/characteristics of chamber/case and differing pressures may produce differing results. Way beyond me, but appears minimal headspace may be a good thing. |
May 23, 2019, 06:23 PM | #134 |
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See 35seconds into the video
LMAO , somewhere Guffey's head is exploding lol Also see 2min in , did he just say CARTRIDGE HEADSPACE ? ROTFLMAO Got to love these companies confusing all the new reloaders out there . haha . I wonder at what point the select few will abandon there tyrannical obsession about what headspace is and can only be ?
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If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; May 23, 2019 at 06:38 PM. |
May 23, 2019, 07:29 PM | #135 |
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It would help everyone if we all used the same definition of headspce (head space) in each of the three applicable areas' context; chamber, cartridge and gauges
Regarding the case, I have often thought "body space" well defines the head to shoulder dimension. But I am not going there. Someone once suggested case head to shoulder be called "power space" being back of primer to front of powder charge. Last edited by Bart B.; May 23, 2019 at 07:50 PM. |
May 23, 2019, 07:55 PM | #136 | |
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This is all you need plus tools to detail strip the rifle bolt and cut a case in half. Last edited by Bart B.; May 24, 2019 at 02:25 PM. |
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May 23, 2019, 08:22 PM | #137 | |
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Nobody gets out of here alive. I'm happy to pass on,give away everything I've learned. If I notice someone else using it....that means what I gave was Gold. What good does it do me to die with it ? That would be a true waste of my life |
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May 23, 2019, 09:07 PM | #138 |
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MG
Great pictures , did make me laugh . Well Done PS: May change my post name to c headspace w 308 Some words just drive people crazy . Chris Last edited by cw308; May 23, 2019 at 09:14 PM. |
May 24, 2019, 02:02 PM | #139 | |
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I don't; I have 16 case forming dies, my favorite forming die is the 308 W forming die because it is short. the second most favorite forming die is the 243W forming die because it is short. I use the 308W forming die (also know as the 308W trim die), the 308W case is close to being .014" larger in diameter at the case body shoulder juncture than the 30/06 case at the same distance from the case head. there is a chance the case body/shoulder juncture will require fireforming for the case to conform to the chamber. When trimming 30/06 to 308 I start with the hack saw and finish with a file. rational; when trimming it is necessary to trim close to .100" from each cases, when forming 100 cases that is a lot of trimming. F. Guffey |
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May 24, 2019, 02:10 PM | #140 |
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After forming with a forming die it is necessary to size the case with a full length sizing die. For those that can keep up with the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face the reloader can off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.
Again, I have a 30/06 chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length chamber. I adjust the fie off the shell holder .014" when sizing 280 Remington cases to 30/06 cases for that chamber. When finished I have the magic .002" clearance. With the M1917 it is not necessary to use 280 Remington cases; but there is a problem when using 30/06 cases. The 30/06 cases shorten when the case fills the chamber. That is not a problem for anyone else but I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get; that is something I can not do with short neck cases. F. Guffey |
May 25, 2019, 08:09 AM | #141 | |
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Bart B:
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Ron |
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May 25, 2019, 09:10 AM | #142 | |
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F. Guffey |
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May 25, 2019, 09:21 AM | #143 |
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CW308,
Don't worry. SAAMI didn't die and anoint Hornady head of firearms terminology. Hornady bought branding rights to that tool from Stoney Point about 15 years ago or so. From the '90's through that change in branding, Stoney Point (the inventor) sold it as The Head 'N Shoulders Cartridge Headspace Gauge, meaning you could discover your chamber headspace by measuring a case fireformed in it. Cartridge Headspace is a term meaning the amount of headspace in the chamber to accommodate a cartridge. It is a chamber property and not a case property. But when Hornady bought the tool branding rights they changed the name and, as far as I know, were the first to start speaking of "case headspace" as a case property. It still causes confusion today.
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May 25, 2019, 09:36 AM | #144 |
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And then came L. Willis with his digital head space gage, reloaders did not know the difference, the digital head space gage was a dial indicator stand and at best if could be used as a comparator.
Reloaders never understood the search engine; when a reloader searched for head space gage the first thing came up was digital head space gage. At the time there could not have been more than three reloaders that knew where all of this was headed if reloaders did not stop making this stuff up. They had a bad habit of polarizing; and nothing has happened to change that. F. Guffey |
May 25, 2019, 10:56 AM | #145 | |
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F. Guffey:
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If I have a known Go gauge I would use a hole punch and maybe punch out a few pieces of maybe stainless steel shim stock. Using a Q-Tip (cotton swab) I would place a tiny dab of a grease on the head of my Go gauge. This will allow my small circular pieces of shim stock to stick to my Go gauge head. Then I would just add the shim stock thickness, which I can check with a micrometer, to my Go gauge dimension. So how would you do it? Anyway, that question was directed at Bart and if I knew how to do it with what he mentions I would not have asked. Ron |
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May 25, 2019, 12:49 PM | #146 | |
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How many times over the years has it been said that the lord ( Mr guff---err SAAMI ) does not have a name for the measurement on a bottle neck case from head to datum point on a given case ? As we all know this is in fact a VERY important measurement for many of us . If SAAMI refuses to give it a name , then the industry and reloaders will . Since the beginning of the spoken and written word . When there was no word to describe something ( as the lord has refused to do here ) . The community chose as a whole through dialog over time what will be excepted as the new word and term for said undescribed thing trying to be described , this is no different . It's that simple and you all can not put the tooth paste back in the tube . Why is that so hard to understand and except ? It's not like the dictionary started out with as many words as it has in it's current form .
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If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . |
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May 25, 2019, 01:36 PM | #147 | ||
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In my efforts I have never had a member offer to improve on my method and or technique. The first responses I expect are from members that do not believe it can be done or they go into auto response with a long list of tools required. there are not many tools I do not have. That does not mean the tools are required. One more time: I am the fan of the datum. Problem with discussing datums with reloaders; it brings out the silly in them. F. Guffey |
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May 25, 2019, 02:19 PM | #148 | |
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-TL Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk |
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May 25, 2019, 03:17 PM | #149 | ||
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Last edited by Bart B.; May 25, 2019 at 03:30 PM. |
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May 25, 2019, 04:01 PM | #150 | |
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2. Cut a 308 case in half then full length size the back half. Put a primer in it. 3. Put the stripped bolt back in the rifle chambering that half case. 4. Put the cleaning rod into the barrel muzzle then stand the rifle muzzle up. 5. Put the firing pin in the bolt then measure how far you can move the pin and case up and down in the chamber. 6. Put just the extractor and pin back in the bolt, chamber the case then measure again. What are the measurements? What does the difference tell you. Last edited by Bart B.; May 25, 2019 at 04:08 PM. |
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