Does anyone weigh their finished handgun bullets?

PaseMkr · April 21, 2012, 02:30 PM

Hey gang,

I have a Hornady LnL AP press. I ran a batch .45 ACP test bullets with medium power charges (according to the Hornady Manual, I went with the middle recommended charge of Winchester 231 or 5.3GN). Upon shooting them, they performed perfectly. All brass was reloaded from Federal Champion Target ammunition, so they were small CCI primers, with Hornady 230 Grain bullets.

I then ran two more batches with the same bullets and charge of Winchester 231 powder. Batch one was brass with small CCI primers and batch two was brass with large CCI primers. Before running each batch, I tested my powder charges 8-10 times by weighing the dispensed load to make sure that my powder drop was indeed loading the case with 5.3GN. Usually loaded the 5.3, but occasionally fluctuated by +/- 0.1. These two batches had a mix of different brass. some of it was the same Federal Champion Target brass, some Starline, some Winchester, etc. So, aside from some bullets having large primers and some having small and the type a brass varying, everything else was the same. I also use a Dillon Powder check dye to make sure I do not double charge a case along with visualizing the powder before seating the bullet. After finishing a number of bullets, I decided to try an weigh them all to see how much difference I was getting from bullet to bullet. I took a factory 230 grain bullet and used that to Zero my electronic scale, (scale was also tested for accuracy by weighting a number of different test weights). Once my scale was zeroed to the factory 230 grain bullet, I weighed my own bullets and was seeing a lot of difference. On the high end, I was 2.0GN over zero and on the low end -10.0GN. Has anyone ever done something like this and what was your experience? Is it possible that the variance from the different manufactures of brass and small and large primers was responsible for that much variance? Do manufactures like Hornady have fluctuation of weight in their bullets?

Tomorrow I am headed to the range and I am going to try some of the bullets that weighed in -10.0 GN and see if they work, I just am scratching my head here as to what would cause this. Am I being overly anal by measuring bullets after they are done? Should I only be concerned with consistency of the powder weights as it goes into the case and be done with it?

Regards,
Steve

straight-shooter · April 21, 2012, 06:47 PM

When your talking about gn measurement of finished rounds, yes there will be that much variance with different brass, primers and bullets. If you are really technical of matching rounds then weigh the bullets and groups them then weigh the brass and group them. Don't worry about primers.

I only do this myself with my precision rifle rounds and measure the powder charges with a RCBS Chargemaster. If it's just plain ol' target fodder, then I just load normally and don't obsess over the gn differences.

Dave P · April 21, 2012, 07:11 PM

Pace, you are worrying about minutia.

Worry about your shooting skills, not a few grains difference in pistol rounds.

Adamantium · April 21, 2012, 08:10 PM

Are you talking about bullets or cartridges? You say bullets but it sounds like you are describing cartridges. Handgun brass varies a lot in weight from piece to piece, even within the same brand and should be accounting for almost all the weight fluctuation you are seeing. It is not a big deal. This also makes weighing finished cartridges to guard against a double charge completely useless.

I might take some flack for saying this but sometimes "close enough is good enough".

Also as a side note I think big brand FMJ's are overpriced and overrated. You'll save yourself a wad of cash in the long run by shooting plated bullets and in 45acp there isn't a single drawback to it. Berrys are essentially half the price of FMJ's.

dmazur · April 22, 2012, 01:11 AM

Especially with relatively heavy bullet and case weight compared to powder charge, the variance in bullet and case weight can completely obscure any measurement of the assembly (cartridge) to check powder charge.

In other words, if you have a variance of 4gr in case weight and 10gr in bullet weight, it is possible for "worst case" to appear to be 7gr higher or lower than average, without any variation in powder charge at all.

Or, you could have a bullet which weighs 5gr higher than average, a case weight which is average, and a missing powder charge (-5gr), but the total weight would appear to be average.

While weighing completed rounds really sounds like a neat idea, on examination it just turns out to be a waste of time...

IMO, it is important to understand why it is a waste of time.

Jim243 · April 22, 2012, 02:59 AM

You said -10 grains of difference? That I would be worried about (like no charge at all). 2 or 3 grain difference no problem, but -10 gains, inquiring minds want to know why???????

Jim

dmazur · April 22, 2012, 03:50 AM

The OP will have to answer, as all I can do is try to interpret what he wrote.

However, it appears he is using a factory cartridge as a "standard", neglecting variance in bullet and case weight that the manufacturer has to contend with.

If he were to weigh a fairly large number of bullets (not cartridges), he would see some variance. Unknown how much, but generally more than a few grains for typical bullets. Perhaps a little less for match bullets.

There would be variation in case weight as well.

So, when I read

Quote:

...On the high end, I was 2.0GN over zero and on the low end -10.0GN.

this is exactly what I would expect to see. The variation in case and bullet weight can completely mask any attempt to weigh powder charges in completed rounds.

So, if "bullets" means "cartridges", I think this is what is going on.

And, as I said, it is important to understand why it can't work.

Edward429451 · April 22, 2012, 09:46 AM

Go shoot them and don't worry about it.

F. Guffey · April 22, 2012, 10:34 AM

Again, a reloader was standing among us, he was doing everything he could do to pull the trigger, he could not pull the trigger, he could not pull the hammer back, he could not rotate the cylinder, he could not swing the cylinder out, it was a good thing, he managed to seat a bullet without powder, the bullet lodged in in the forcing cone, we stopped shooting and help him, we drove the bullet back into the cylinder, opened the cylinder and dumped his reloaded ammo, he immediately started loading his S&W model 66 and was going to start shooting again, and we had questions, he was loading on a 550 B Dillon, we could not convince him had the bullet been driven into the barrel past the forcing cone he could have been eligible to pull the trigger again, then we listed the good’s and the ‘bad’s’ starting with pulling the trigger on a full load with a bullet stuck in the barrel. We could not convince him it was possible to use a scale and discern between a case with no powder and a case with powder and then a case with twice the powder, and we offered to loan him a scale, check his ammo for him, we offered to give him a scale and we offered him all the ammo he wanted to shoot, our ammo, pulling the trigger and not knowing what was going to happen to him, his pistol and or us did not bother him, he packed all his guns and reloads up and left, and again we offered him our help, time and equipment, this was in real time, not the Internet. We felt good about our effort and our intent.

F. Guffey

dmazur · April 22, 2012, 12:25 PM

I just checked 30 loaded .45ACP (all Winchester brass, no mixed brass) and got 9.5gr of variation for just this sample size. (low 320.7, high 330.2)

These were my reloads, and my powder measure does not vary thrown charges by 9.5 gr. Charge weight is 5.0gr Bullseye, +/- 0.1 gr.

The variation is due to case weight and bullet weight.

The next time I buy factory ammo (which is rare), I'll try to repeat this experiment.

I think the variation is going to be similar.

Kayser · April 22, 2012, 12:53 PM

I tried this the other day with ~200 rounds of 38 spl. What I found was an absolute spread of about 197.5 - 200.1 grains total, with the vast vast majority around 198.5

Same brass, same primers, same bullet same load. I was still surprised how close they were.

mo84 · April 22, 2012, 12:56 PM

Just weigh some emtpy cases and bullets and you will see a big differance in them all. Usually when I check powder, ill zero the case I am going to put the powder in and weigh it when its full. Each case has to be zeroed to do this as they are almost always different. I would not worry to much about it.

dmazur · April 22, 2012, 01:13 PM

OK, additional data -

Small sample sizes may not be as good as larger, but I only did 20 of each...

Rainier plated 230gr RN 229.4gr - 231.0gr (0.6gr variation)
Hornady 230gr XTP 229.3gr - 229.7gr (0.4gr variation)
Winchester cases, cleaned 87.1gr - 94.1gr (7.0gr variation)

So, based on this observed variation, I would not be surprised to see a variation of 8.0gr in completed rounds. And, when dealing with a powder charge on the order of 5.0gr, this is too much variation to conclude anything meaningful related to powder charge from a weight near the high end or the low end.

Now, if you had case variation similar to bullet variation, that would be a different situation. Now an additional 5.0gr (double charge) or a missing 5.0gr (squib) would be evident.

But summing highly variable data and "wishing" the sum didn't exhibit variation larger than the quantity one is trying to measure does not make it so...

PaseMkr · April 22, 2012, 03:31 PM

Thanks for all the responses and great info. Sorry that my terminology used in the initial question was confusing. You all guessed correctly as to what I was trying to ask. I was weighing finished rounds or cartridges. Anyway, I took a number of my reloads to the range today. I brought the some that had the greatest high variance at 2.0 GN and a bunch that weighed 10.0 GN lighter. All rounds performed perfectly. Thanks again everyone!

April 21, 2012, 02:30 PM	#1
PaseMkr Junior Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Posts: 13	Does anyone weigh their finished handgun bullets? Hey gang, I have a Hornady LnL AP press. I ran a batch .45 ACP test bullets with medium power charges (according to the Hornady Manual, I went with the middle recommended charge of Winchester 231 or 5.3GN). Upon shooting them, they performed perfectly. All brass was reloaded from Federal Champion Target ammunition, so they were small CCI primers, with Hornady 230 Grain bullets. I then ran two more batches with the same bullets and charge of Winchester 231 powder. Batch one was brass with small CCI primers and batch two was brass with large CCI primers. Before running each batch, I tested my powder charges 8-10 times by weighing the dispensed load to make sure that my powder drop was indeed loading the case with 5.3GN. Usually loaded the 5.3, but occasionally fluctuated by +/- 0.1. These two batches had a mix of different brass. some of it was the same Federal Champion Target brass, some Starline, some Winchester, etc. So, aside from some bullets having large primers and some having small and the type a brass varying, everything else was the same. I also use a Dillon Powder check dye to make sure I do not double charge a case along with visualizing the powder before seating the bullet. After finishing a number of bullets, I decided to try an weigh them all to see how much difference I was getting from bullet to bullet. I took a factory 230 grain bullet and used that to Zero my electronic scale, (scale was also tested for accuracy by weighting a number of different test weights). Once my scale was zeroed to the factory 230 grain bullet, I weighed my own bullets and was seeing a lot of difference. On the high end, I was 2.0GN over zero and on the low end -10.0GN. Has anyone ever done something like this and what was your experience? Is it possible that the variance from the different manufactures of brass and small and large primers was responsible for that much variance? Do manufactures like Hornady have fluctuation of weight in their bullets? Tomorrow I am headed to the range and I am going to try some of the bullets that weighed in -10.0 GN and see if they work, I just am scratching my head here as to what would cause this. Am I being overly anal by measuring bullets after they are done? Should I only be concerned with consistency of the powder weights as it goes into the case and be done with it? Regards, Steve

April 21, 2012, 07:11 PM	#3
Dave P Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 1999 Location: North Florida Posts: 1,346	Pace, you are worrying about minutia. Worry about your shooting skills, not a few grains difference in pistol rounds. __________________ I think this country is screwed.

April 21, 2012, 08:10 PM	#4
Adamantium Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 1999 Location: El Paso, TX Posts: 1,021	Are you talking about bullets or cartridges? You say bullets but it sounds like you are describing cartridges. Handgun brass varies a lot in weight from piece to piece, even within the same brand and should be accounting for almost all the weight fluctuation you are seeing. It is not a big deal. This also makes weighing finished cartridges to guard against a double charge completely useless. I might take some flack for saying this but sometimes "close enough is good enough". Also as a side note I think big brand FMJ's are overpriced and overrated. You'll save yourself a wad of cash in the long run by shooting plated bullets and in 45acp there isn't a single drawback to it. Berrys are essentially half the price of FMJ's. __________________ New gun, same ol' shot.

April 22, 2012, 01:11 AM	#5
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	Especially with relatively heavy bullet and case weight compared to powder charge, the variance in bullet and case weight can completely obscure any measurement of the assembly (cartridge) to check powder charge. In other words, if you have a variance of 4gr in case weight and 10gr in bullet weight, it is possible for "worst case" to appear to be 7gr higher or lower than average, without any variation in powder charge at all. Or, you could have a bullet which weighs 5gr higher than average, a case weight which is average, and a missing powder charge (-5gr), but the total weight would appear to be average. While weighing completed rounds really sounds like a neat idea, on examination it just turns out to be a waste of time... IMO, it is important to understand why it is a waste of time. __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

April 22, 2012, 02:59 AM	#6
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	You said -10 grains of difference? That I would be worried about (like no charge at all). 2 or 3 grain difference no problem, but -10 gains, inquiring minds want to know why??????? Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

April 21, 2012, 06:47 PM	#2
straight-shooter Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: North Central Indiana Posts: 436	When your talking about gn measurement of finished rounds, yes there will be that much variance with different brass, primers and bullets. If you are really technical of matching rounds then weigh the bullets and groups them then weigh the brass and group them. Don't worry about primers. I only do this myself with my precision rifle rounds and measure the powder charges with a RCBS Chargemaster. If it's just plain ol' target fodder, then I just load normally and don't obsess over the gn differences.

April 22, 2012, 09:46 AM	#8
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Go shoot them and don't worry about it.

April 22, 2012, 10:34 AM	#9
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Again, a reloader was standing among us, he was doing everything he could do to pull the trigger, he could not pull the trigger, he could not pull the hammer back, he could not rotate the cylinder, he could not swing the cylinder out, it was a good thing, he managed to seat a bullet without powder, the bullet lodged in in the forcing cone, we stopped shooting and help him, we drove the bullet back into the cylinder, opened the cylinder and dumped his reloaded ammo, he immediately started loading his S&W model 66 and was going to start shooting again, and we had questions, he was loading on a 550 B Dillon, we could not convince him had the bullet been driven into the barrel past the forcing cone he could have been eligible to pull the trigger again, then we listed the good’s and the ‘bad’s’ starting with pulling the trigger on a full load with a bullet stuck in the barrel. We could not convince him it was possible to use a scale and discern between a case with no powder and a case with powder and then a case with twice the powder, and we offered to loan him a scale, check his ammo for him, we offered to give him a scale and we offered him all the ammo he wanted to shoot, our ammo, pulling the trigger and not knowing what was going to happen to him, his pistol and or us did not bother him, he packed all his guns and reloads up and left, and again we offered him our help, time and equipment, this was in real time, not the Internet. We felt good about our effort and our intent. F. Guffey

April 22, 2012, 12:25 PM	#10
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	I just checked 30 loaded .45ACP (all Winchester brass, no mixed brass) and got 9.5gr of variation for just this sample size. (low 320.7, high 330.2) These were my reloads, and my powder measure does not vary thrown charges by 9.5 gr. Charge weight is 5.0gr Bullseye, +/- 0.1 gr. The variation is due to case weight and bullet weight. The next time I buy factory ammo (which is rare), I'll try to repeat this experiment. I think the variation is going to be similar. __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

April 22, 2012, 12:53 PM	#11
Kayser Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2002 Location: Illinois :( Posts: 550	I tried this the other day with ~200 rounds of 38 spl. What I found was an absolute spread of about 197.5 - 200.1 grains total, with the vast vast majority around 198.5 Same brass, same primers, same bullet same load. I was still surprised how close they were. __________________ ----------------- Box Of Truth Afficionado!

April 22, 2012, 12:56 PM	#12
mo84 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Michigan Posts: 257	Just weigh some emtpy cases and bullets and you will see a big differance in them all. Usually when I check powder, ill zero the case I am going to put the powder in and weigh it when its full. Each case has to be zeroed to do this as they are almost always different. I would not worry to much about it.

April 22, 2012, 01:13 PM	#13
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	OK, additional data - Small sample sizes may not be as good as larger, but I only did 20 of each... Rainier plated 230gr RN 229.4gr - 231.0gr (0.6gr variation) Hornady 230gr XTP 229.3gr - 229.7gr (0.4gr variation) Winchester cases, cleaned 87.1gr - 94.1gr (7.0gr variation) So, based on this observed variation, I would not be surprised to see a variation of 8.0gr in completed rounds. And, when dealing with a powder charge on the order of 5.0gr, this is too much variation to conclude anything meaningful related to powder charge from a weight near the high end or the low end. Now, if you had case variation similar to bullet variation, that would be a different situation. Now an additional 5.0gr (double charge) or a missing 5.0gr (squib) would be evident. But summing highly variable data and "wishing" the sum didn't exhibit variation larger than the quantity one is trying to measure does not make it so... __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

April 22, 2012, 03:31 PM	#14
PaseMkr Junior Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Posts: 13	Thanks for all the responses and great info. Sorry that my terminology used in the initial question was confusing. You all guessed correctly as to what I was trying to ask. I was weighing finished rounds or cartridges. Anyway, I took a number of my reloads to the range today. I brought the some that had the greatest high variance at 2.0 GN and a bunch that weighed 10.0 GN lighter. All rounds performed perfectly. Thanks again everyone!