Single action mechanism

[Hawg]

There's people that will say a turn ring is unavoidable and this from experienced people that just don't know any better. This is my Uberti Cimarron. It was made in 2000. I used it in CAS for awhile. It's been used hard but no turn ring.

[Drm50]

I now have a throbbing headache from this thread.

[frankie viljoen]

Thanks

[frankie viljoen]

Just to clarify my explanation on what I thought happened when my friend fanned the single action. I said that he pulled the trigger when he started fanning but I assumed (wrongly) that happened.
As he showed me, one can pull the trigger and fan the gun but that does not explain the new position that the hammer held for a while after he fanned it.
I have send the firearm off to a gunsmith and will get feedback in a week or two.
We had a civilized discussion on what could possibly gone wrong but could not agree to anything.
I think that the hammer was held in the new position from an obstruction that was most likely rolled metal or something to that effect and after subsequent use the obstruction cleared and the hammer could go back to the original position which is the quarter cock position in this case. It might be that he squeezed the trigger, preventing it from going forward as he fanned the hammer.
Any case, it is off to the gunsmith.
I would like to thank everybody for the input received.
It helped, thanks.

[Aguila Blanca]

Just because one "can" do something does not mean one "should" do something. Especially not with someone else's NEW property, without asking permission.

Over the years, I have owned maybe half a dozen single action revolvers. Somehow, in more than two decades I've managed to NOT try fanning any of them.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Over the years, I have owned maybe half a dozen single action revolvers. Somehow, in more than two decades I've managed to NOT try fanning any of them.

Over the years I've owned several dozens of them. I probably own close to a dozen now. It's my favorite revolver action. In my younger days I tried fanning with a .22 but I couldn't hit anything. It led to the demise of that particular gun.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Hawg

In my younger days I tried fanning with a .22 but I couldn't hit anything. It led to the demise of that particular gun.

And that's the important point, IMHO. Clint Eastwood could take out five banditos with five shots by fanning, but that only works when you're firing five-in-one blanks. The rest of us couldn't hit a wall at ten feet that way. But ... it IS very hard on the firearm.

[44 AMP]

Its also a point to remember that the guns in the movies & TV are not (or are VERY rarely) the personal property of the actors, and often get intentionally abused solely for dramatic effect.

I cringe inside, every time I see an SA fanned, a SxS flipped shut, or a DA "Bogarted" by being flipped shut. I know there are dedicated gear heads out there that break out in virtual tears seeing a classic car being bashed, thrashed, and often trashed in the movies.

Nobody cares much if the prop gets damaged as long as they get the shot the director wants.

[frankie viljoen]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Just because one "can" do something does not mean one "should" do something. Especially not with someone else's NEW property, without asking permission.

Over the years, I have owned maybe half a dozen single action revolvers. Somehow, in more than two decades I've managed to NOT try fanning any of them.

I agree. I will never try fanning the firearm, I have no desire to do that because it is harmful to the firearm. I was completely taken by surprise when he did it. According to him, he could not have damaged it. Our discussion might not be over yet. He also do not like the idea that I ask him to pay for the damage.

[frankie viljoen]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Its also a point to remember that the guns in the movies & TV are not (or are VERY rarely) the personal property of the actors, and often get intentionally abused solely for dramatic effect.

I cringe inside, every time I see an SA fanned, a SxS flipped shut, or a DA "Bogarted" by being flipped shut. I know there are dedicated gear heads out there that break out in virtual tears seeing a classic car being bashed, thrashed, and often trashed in the movies.

Nobody cares much if the prop gets damaged as long as they get the shot the director wants.

I also cringed. Afterwards, at home, looking at the firearm with its new hammer position was very depressing with mixed feelings of helplessness and waves of anger.
I tore a roll of toilet paper up into very small pieces while swearing profusely.
That helped a bit.

[armoredman]

The closest thing to "fanning" I've heard of that is used widely is "slip hammering", where the pistol is aimed, the strong hand holds the trigger back and the weak hand brings the hammer back to full cock and lets go, being faster than pulling the trigger every time. I don't THINK it damages anything, being a CAS newbie with SASS but I've seen it done. I find it awkward and clumsy for me. Of course, this is why I win no buckles.

Edit to add, I agree - a friend who would abuse my property would find he no longer has access to my property.

[44 AMP]

being faster than pulling the trigger every time.

I've often heard people say "Its faster than pulling the trigger", but I've never understood how that can be possible.

Unless the gun is broken, it will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. When an SA is fanned or slip hammered, the trigger is still pulled. Its just pulled. and held back before or during cocking the hammer.

Elmer Keith covers slip hammering in his book "Sixguns" and had a couple of SA's modified for that.

I believe that damage to an SA from fanning is the result of the extra force the technique puts on the parts. The shooter is "slapping" the hammer back much harder (to get speed) than thumb cocking, and the guns are not built to survive that level of force working the mechanism.

It is, in some ways the equivalent of revving the engine and then "popping /dumping the clutch". Parts get jammed together with more force than what they were designed to run on, and over time (and sometimes very little time) things get worn or break before they otherwise would.

[tangolima]

Pistols, revolver included, were supposed to be fired single handedly. Fanning or slipping the hammer uses both hands, so it is faster. 2 steps in sequence become parallel.

The difference between fanning and slipping is how fast the cylinder is rotating. Generally the latter is slow enough to be harmless. But one can always try something to make it the other around. I can slow fan, or quick slip, can I not?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Jim Watson]

Bob Munden beefed up SAAs to withstand fanning and slam-cocking but I have read that it was usual to have "a pair and a spare." One gun to shoot, a backup, and one in the shop.
Maybe a Bill Oglesby Ruger is stronger.

Elmer Keith showed a SAA with the hammer spur lowered and rounded for slip shooting.

[44 AMP]

Fanning or slipping the hammer uses both hands, so it is faster.

This assumes, of course, that you have a second hand free to cock or slip the hammer. During the formative years of the Single action revolver, the "off" hand was expected to be busy, with reins or perhaps a saber or something else, and the ability to use the gun one handed as a repeater was a huge advantage over the earlier designs. And considering your 2nd and subsequent shots were available much, much faster than a muzzle loading single shot pistol made it a major game changer, it wasn't critical at the time that the SA be used in the very fastest way possible.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

This assumes, of course, that you have a second hand free to cock or slip the hammer. During the formative years of the Single action revolver, the "off" hand was expected to be busy, with reins or perhaps a saber or something else, and the ability to use the gun one handed as a repeater was a huge advantage over the earlier designs. And considering your 2nd and subsequent shots were available much, much faster than a muzzle loading single shot pistol made it a major game changer, it wasn't critical at the time that the SA be used in the very fastest way possible.

You have to use both hands to fan or slip. With only one hand, there is no fanning or slipping. When you can fan or slip, you can shoot faster. I think we have all that covered.

Of course this assumes you did forget to load the gun and the gun is working.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[JohnKSa]

You can slip shoot with one hand. Keith learned it as an experiment and describes his technique. He did mention that took him a lot of practice, and that it also basically "unlearned" his normal pistol shooting technique. He had to relearn to shoot a pistol normally after he gave up the slip shooting experiment.

Chapter 13 of Sixguns! covers his experiment. He had guns made so they would only shoot with the slip technique.

He does mention two-handed slip shooting.

He also talks about fanning in that chapter and comments that: "Fanning a single action will produce more broken and worn parts than any other method of shooting we know of, and we do not recommend it."

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by frankie viljoen

I agree. I will never try fanning the firearm, I have no desire to do that because it is harmful to the firearm. I was completely taken by surprise when he did it. According to him, he could not have damaged it. Our discussion might not be over yet. He also do not like the idea that I ask him to pay for the damage.

Funny how idiots never want to accept responsibility for their actions and definitely don’t want to pay for damages they cause.

[44 AMP]

A question, any one ever seen anyone (including the experts) fanning or slip shooting an SA from anything but the hip shooting position???

And by "hip shooting" I mean when shooting the gun from below eye level or high enough that the sights can be used.

Movie cowboys fan from either low (hip level) or somewhat higher, like mid chest level. No one seems to bring the gun up to full extension aim using the sights, and THEN fan the hammer.

Fanning seems to be completely tied to point shooting, particularly in movies and tv shows. Its done for dramatic appearance using speed, and the scriptwriters ability for the shooter to never miss.

I know there are people who can be surprisingly accurate as well as fast point shooting. I also know those people have practiced, a LOT in order to maximize their natural talent.

Basically, I wonder about the point of being fast, if you aren't personally skilled enough to hit your target (at least once) running "fast"??

I give the movie "Unforgiven" points for mentioning the reality of a gunfight where the fastest guy isn't automatically the winner.

And I also wonder about breaking your gun trying/training to be as fast as possible. Just seems like a poor idea, to me.

[tangolima]

I have seen it in CAS match. Aimed, both hands, slipping hammer fast.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

A question, any one ever seen anyone (including the experts) fanning or slip shooting an SA from anything but the hip shooting position???

I didn't see it, but several years ago there was a somewhat well publicized story about a chap who thwarted an armed robbery in a convenience store. He was armed with a clone of a single action revolver, with a brass trigger guard. Apparently when he first engaged the robbed the hero hit the floor, hard enough to deform the trigger guard so it wouldn't allow the trigger to reset.

So he took out the robber by slip firing. The articles didn't say if he used one hand or two, but he was on the floor so he was probably firing aimed fire, from a prone position.

[JohnKSa]

I reread parts of Sixgun last night and noticed that Keith commented on how robust a well-made slip gun was because there was so little to break on it. Kind of goes along with the guy in the robbery whose gun kept working as a slip gun even after the trigger was jammed.

[armoredman]

Heck, I watched it yesterday at the local CAS practice match I attended. Slip hammering IS slightly faster in the fact that the hammer does not touch the sear, and the trigger does not reset then release again, in the hands of an expert. Having said that, I personally don't use it, I am not out to win any belt buckles, just a fat old man having fun, and I'd probably screw it up.
P.S. Practice match means you don't have to dress in costume, in case you were wondering...you probably weren't.

[44 AMP]

I think I would put slipping the hammer as a technique, and a "Slip gun" which can only be fired that way, in slightly different groups.

Every SA will function as a slip gun if you pull the trigger and hold it back while cocking the hammer. I think is a better choice than a gun modified to only work as a slip gun.

[frankie viljoen]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

This assumes, of course, that you have a second hand free to cock or slip the hammer. During the formative years of the Single action revolver, the "off" hand was expected to be busy, with reins or perhaps a saber or something else, and the ability to use the gun one handed as a repeater was a huge advantage over the earlier designs. And considering your 2nd and subsequent shots were available much, much faster than a muzzle loading single shot pistol made it a major game changer, it wasn't critical at the time that the SA be used in the very fastest way possible.

Good argument