so... what replaces that elusive 231 ???

[Nick_C_S]

(Mike) I don't know about 231's economy, as I've never really compared it price wise against Bullseye or anything else.

(Kosh) I generally found that getting performance equivalent to Bullseye loads from W231, I had to elevate the charge weight from 0.5 grains to 1.5grains per round, depending on the caliber of interest.

Based on my extensive experience, in the 38 Special target ammo world, the difference to achieve similar performance between W231 and Bullseye is about 0.4 grains per round (in most bullet weights/types). But either way, save Vihtavuori, economy is never a factor for me a in powder purchase/selection. It's the least costly of the components; with the difference being but fractions of a penny per round.

(Mike) As for Unique, I've never been shy in my opinion about Unique. Personally, I can't stand the stuff. It's filthy dirty and it meters for crap.

(Kosh) I AM a fan of Unique, despite its tendency to "meter like cornflakes" and not burn as cleanly as many powders. I find both problems abate quickly as charge weights go above 5 - 6gr, and heavy crimps, heavy bullets, and higher velocities are sought.

I think we all agree that Unique meters crummy. For me, yes, it does, but not to the point where it makes inconsistent ammo. Yeah, trying to get my hopper set to the correct charge weight has me at times muttering a few choice words that my granddaughter shouldn't hear. But it's not that big o' deal.

As for Unique running clean, you gotta load it up (we all know this). Of course it begs the question: If you have to load it up to get it to run clean, then how versatile is it really? I like Unique. I have and use Unique. But I'm going to phase it out of my inventory for this reason. If I have to load it up to get it to run clean, then I'd rather use Power Pistol for the application. And so for that reason, I'm going to phase out my inventory of Unique. I have just over two #'s; will take a couple years for me to exhaust my supply.

[Mike Irwin]

"MIKE IRWIN, not to start a "flaming war" or whatever it's called, but I generally found that getting performance equivalent to Bullseye loads from W231, I had to elevate the charge weight from 0.5 grains to 1.5grains per round, depending on the caliber of interest."

Well Duh, they're different powders.

If the loading data were exactly the same, and produced the same results, they'd be the same powder.

But, velocity vs loading density isn't the only reason to pick a powder.

My first reloads -- 9mm and .38 Special -- were done with 231.

Over the years I've tried many other powders, including Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, the various AAs, etc., and I've never found any that truly beat 231 for its versatility for MY reloading needs -- the cartridges I load and the results I get, both at the loading bench and at the range.

That said, there are some situations in which I do NOT use 231 as I don't consider it to be the best powder for the job.

Most specific is for my .44 Special. The tiny amounts of 231 that constituted top loads were still virtually lost in the case, and I was getting spotty performance and accuracy, most likely due to powder ignition issues due to positioning in the case.

When I switched to Trail Boss, though, it was a completely different story.

Anyway, don't for a moment feel that I'm denigrating your, or anyone else's choice of reloading powders if they choose something other than 231. It's not a contest. It's what works best for us.

[Mike Irwin]

" If you have to load it up to get it to run clean, then how versatile is it really?"

You're misunderstanding the term versatility, at least for how I'm using it.

Just because it's not clean burning doesn't mean that it's not versatile.

Another good descriptor to replace versatile is, perhaps, flexible. It has an enormous use range, both in terms of cartridges and in terms of loads for those cartridges, a range that few, if any other, powders can match.

[Nick_C_S]

I'm not questioning Unique's versatility. It is indeed versatile.

I was posing the question rhetorically for the sake of thought provocation. Posing a different perspective, if you will.

[Mike Irwin]

ok, you seemed to be linking versatility to cleanliness.

[Pathfinder45]

The only handgun cartridge that I have been reloading for is 45 Colt. I have used a lot of different powders in that caliber over the years, including 231 and HP-38. Even though they were very good powders, I quit using them as I got spoiled for choices with other powders at prices that were too good to pass up, including free. If I can have only one powder for 45 Colt, Unique is the best all-around. And, in my experience, it burns clean in that application. If I want something for lighter loads, I like Titegroup. For somewhat heavier loads, Hodgdon's HS-7 is excellent. For the heaviest loads I care to shoot, AA-9 is about the best. So, no, I will not really miss 231. There are many good substitutes. Those that I have tried near that end of the spectrum include Red Dot, Green Dot AA-2, etc. Oddly, I have never used Bullseye. You will find something and at least make do. And then there are the gun shows where anything can happen. You might even find your precious 231 long after it's discontinued, from somebody's estate that was boarded away until now. You'll be fine.

[Mike Irwin]

I use Universal for .45 Colt. Decent loading density and very clean.

[Jim Watson]

Stock up, ADI is changing the powders we get here as the Clays family.
Probably be at least couple of years before they get around to Universal, though.

[Slamfire]

Substitute.

we strike the first 6 letters of substitute, leaving "tute."

Then we substitute this for the first 6 letters...

"no frigging way in hell am I using (it a "tute").

In essence, sub is replaced with NO WAY, JOSE.

I am glad you explained it, because I would never have figured it out.

I have shot tens of thousands of rounds, cumulative, loaded with Bullseye in 32 S&W Long, 9mm, 38 Special, 45 ACP. I am going to load up some very light 44 Special loads and see how they shoot. Bullseye has worked very well when I am not trying for magnum loads, or loads above standard. Unique is the more flexible of the two, and I am always surprised about the negative reactions to Unique. I have shot kegs of W231 in the 45 ACP, it shoots great, just as good as Bullseye. I am not going to say that one is cleaner than the other as I can't tell a difference. Bullseye and W231 soot up my M1911's about the same amount.

I am currently shooting Bullseye in Bullseye pistol competition. Functions the pistol. Can't make any claims about accuracy as I am currently a Marksman class shooter. The worst of the bunch. If there was a lower classification, the NRA would have sent me that card. Bullseye pistol is really hard. I have not broken 700 with a centerfire pistol. Still, when I ask for other's advice on 45 ACP target loads, Bullseye is still a staple.

I am not convinced that the better metering of ball powders, which W231 is one, means all that much on target. I have posted data, another way of saying I am too lazy to look it up right now, of AA #5 compared to Bullseye or Unique. Over my chronographs I do not see that AA #5 gives me tighter velocities spreads than Bullseye, or Unique. My charges are all thrown on a Dillion 550B. If metering made a difference I should see it in velocity spreads.

Besides, we are talking handguns here. The ten ring is around two inches at 50 yards. I have not only not put all my bullets in the ten ring at 50 yards, I sometimes miss the whole target!. Now, with one of my .22LR rifles, I am shooting sub dime sized groups at that distance. Handgun accuracy is sort of relative. Relatively big.

[Overkill777]

Since 231/hp38 dried up I began stocking up on what I could find; titegroup and bullseye. I guess I have done ok.

These are for 38 and 45 acp. I actually came up with a light 357 magnum load with 158 gr plated bullets using titegroup and it turned out to be a fun and accurate load too.

[Average Joe]

I just switched over to itatute, seems like a good product.

[Ozzieman]

Mike, have you ever tried Herco for your 44 specials?

[Mike Irwin]

"Mike, have you ever tried Herco for your 44 specials?"

Nope. By the time I got the .44 Special and started experimenting with powders for it Trail Boss was just coming out.

After reading a few stories about how it performed, I grabbed some and was immediately hooked.

The only powders I tried were 231, Red Dot (a bit better), and the tail end of some Unique I had around the house. Both Red Dot and Unique were so disgustingly filthy that I abandoned them outright.

[Gravedigger56]

Titegroup, BE-86, Power Pistol, Clays, to name just a few that I like just as well

[Nick_C_S]

Well I just purchased 4#'s (4, one-pound containers) of TiteGroup from Cabela's.

Completely untested. Hope it's good stuff.

[DarthNul]

Ramshot Zip - if you can get it. I haven't seen it in two years. My 4# jug is nearly dry. It's my "go to" accuracy powder for 9mm and 40 S&W. I use Power Pistol for good accuracy at max power. Zip is nearly interchangeable with 231 and supposedly even cleaner (not that I could tell though).

[excaliber551]

I waited forever for some W231 to show up but was able to find plenty of HP38. I'm set for a while now. Try your local shop and have them place an order for you. It took a few months but I did get my order filled.

[g.willikers]

Once upon a time, when handgun (revolver) reloaders were mostly wanting to duplicate factory loads, but much cheaper, the two standby powders were 2400 for magnum and Unique for non-magnum.
Dirty?
Of course, shooting is a dirty business.
Wadda' expect.
Looking like we just crawled out of a coal mine was just normal after a few hours of shooting.
Had to do some serious hand and beard cleaning to even think about eating lunch.
And we wouldn't dare come in the house with those range clothes.
Times have sure changed - for me, too.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

W231 has always been an okay powder for my 45 ACPs and it was the first powder I tried in that caliber. Ran it for years until it became hard to find and finally bought a can of Bulls-Eye. At max loads under a 200 gr LSWC, it groups much better for me than 231 ever did at any charge weight.
I don't like the way Bulls-Eye meters as much, but its been a more accurate powder in this cartridge. Have not done a comparison on jacketed bullets but that is my next test.

[Ozzieman]

Nope. By the time I got the .44 Special and started experimenting with powders for it Trail Boss was just coming out.

For the most part I use W231 for just about everything (45 ACP, 9mm, 44 sp and mag, 38’s) in the medium range but for my N frame specials and single actions I seem to get better accuracy with Herco. Granted if you don’t stay in the upper power range it can be dirty.
Never used Trail Boss, guess it's time I try, if I can find any. Luckily I have a full 8 pound can of Herco. (but very little W231).

[Reloader54]

I use win231 for my reloading. I reload .357mag, .38 spl, .38 +p, .45long and .45acp. And I to have not been able to find any of it. But when I started reloading I started with Unique. and that I've been able to find. I'm on my last bottle of win231 and I bought 3 pounds of unique. And this will last me a few years. Because the .45long is the one that takes the most powder charge. And that is 7.5gr with a 230gr bullet. And this is also a medium load for this round. I only shoot paper targets and some metal silhouettes. And My loads do just fine for this type of shooting. And I've even been able to hit metal plate out to 300 meters with these same loads as well. And my gun likes this load as well. plus there is not a lot of recoil either.

[mikejonestkd]

231 is a versatile powder that works well in almost all mid range loadings for a wide variety of cartridges. Its easily my favorite powder.

BTW- Cabelas has it in stock as of 7:00am EST today......go get it!!

[9mmfun]

Yeah, I was going to say more W231 but Reloader54 beat me to it. Check out Cabelas online.