CFE 223 in .308 problem

[bigcountryeb]

I've been loading for my Remington model 7400 in .308 for about a year. Last fall I developed a load using Remington brass, 150 gr. HDY soft point bullets, CCI large rifle primers and 51.3 (.2 below max in my lee manual) Grains CFE 223. I've put about 200 rounds of this through my rem 7400, and shot one deer, with zero problems until today. Today I shot 8 rounds, blew 2 primers, and flattened 3 more. The reason I blew 2 is having had no previous problems I was shooting 4 rounds at a time before checking my brass between reloads. On the first set of 4 one landed in my range bag and I didn't find it until packing up to go home (it had a blown primer). I noticed the second one immediately because it was the 4th shot and the primer jammed the action. Gun appears to be fine although I didn't have any other ammo with my to try and I wasn't about to shoot another once I realized I had 2 blown primers on my hands and 3 more flattened ones. The only difference I can think of between this box and the other 200 rounds of this load I have shot is temperature. Last fall it was probably in the 40-60 degree range when I was testing this load. Today it was 95. I pulled the rest of this box and have another box of 20 with lake City brass I'm considering pulling (should I?). I lost too much powder while pulling (hammer type puller) to really get an accurate weight of powder charges but all were below the 51.3 grains that should have been in there. Has anybody else here had temperature problems with CFE 223? Or do you all think I just overloaded this box somehow? I'm using a Lee scale and Lee drum powder measure.

[DaleA]

I think you answered your own question.

The rise in temperature increased the pressure. This is a pretty well know factor.

It's beyond my meager skills to tell you how much of a pressure increase 30 degrees will cause but I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you how many degrees change will result in how much pressure increase.

[std7mag]

Hodgdon's periodical lists 51.5gr of CFE223 with the 150gr. Nosler Ballistic tip, and Fed210M primer.
So, yeah your probably over pressure.
I definetly would not use that load in the Lake City brass!!

As for pulling bullets, it is definetly worth you money to get a collet puller. RCBS and others make good ones.

[JeepHammer]

THANKS!
I didn't know there was a problem with temp problem with CFE.

[hounddawg]

Do a Google search using the phrase" CFE 223 powder temperature sensitivity" and see what comes up. Seems as if it is very temp sensitive

If you are using the CFE because it meters well out of a Lee powder measure you might try TAC instead. It meters great and seems to be fairly temp stable although I have only shot it from mid 70's to mid 90's to be honest.

I prefer Varget myself for .308 but recently bought some H4895 for a load test. They are both stick powders and which has issues with drum style powder measures

[Dufus]

From my experiences, there are not too many spherical powders that are NOT temperature sensitive.

This is the very reason that I wait until it gets warmer to do my load developments. Of course that depends on the area that you live.

Down here, it starts getting hot in March and doesn't get cooler 'til November sometimes.

Also from my experiences, Remington brass is almost as small as milspec brass as far as case capacity. Please note that nearly all my bottle necked rifle brass is old, say from back in the 60s and 70s. WW brass has the title for the highest capacity (large case volume). If I develop a load using WW brass, I almost always need to drop the charge weight 2-3 grains to obtain the same velocity in Remington brass. And if you are wondering, yes, I did learn this the hard way many moons ago.

The listed charge that is in your Lee manual is directly from Hodgdon. Lee did not develop any of the load data in the Lee manual and relied solely on contributions from other sources to put together their load manual.

[cw308]

You are close to the top of the charge for that powder, when up there heat, case thickness , case life & seating depth will give you all sorts of trouble. Is the bolt face pitted from the blown primers? Better carry a stuck case extractor in your range bag .

[Dufus]

You are close to the top of the charge for that powder

Since he is blowing primers, I would have to say that he is over the top of the charge for that powder.

[Stats Shooter]

I did a load development write up on this forum last year about CFE-223 in my AR-10 and in my AR-15, .308 and .223 respectively.

I will summrize my findings for you.

In my .308, with a cold barrel and cold to warmish chamber, I found CFE 223 to give good accuracy and consistent velocity. I tried 2 different bullets and achieved velocities higher than other powders and loads suitable for the bullets I tired.
However, I found that with a warm/hotish barrel, that the POI shifted up and right almost 2 MOA and the velocities increased up to 70fps. This resulted in pierced primers in a load that was 0.3 gr below maximum. The groups also opened up from .75 MOA to about 2.5 MOA.

In my .223, I had similar results. Outstanding velocity and very good groups with a cold bore. However, once the chamber warmed up, I had the POI shift and the groups opened up from less than 1 moa to about 1.5 MOA.

Both of these guns will shoot the same POI warm/cold barrel with temp stable powders like benchmark, Varget, or IMR 4064. Both of these guns are 1/2 MOA guns with the proper load.

My conclusion of the hundreds of rounds of testing in different temperature conditions are:
PRO's: CFE-223 Meters Well, achieves higher velocities than other powders, yields low extreme spreads when all shots are taken cold bore, does in fact help eliminate copper fouling, would make a good hunting load powder for cold weather.

CONS: VERY TEMPERATURE SENSITIVE, VERY TEMPERATURE SENSITIVE, and VERY TEMPERATURE SENSITIVE!! Would not be a good competition load if warm barrel shooting is necessary, would not be good for summer varmint (i.e. prairie dogs).

Essentially, if you are using it in competition or for prarie dogs, you would have to either dump 10 rounds to get the barrel hot and sight in from there..or wait 5-10 min between each shot to let the barrel/chamber cool....or just deal with a shifting POI and velocities and load the cartridges near the minimum expecting that they will behave more like a cold bore max load.

It is why i went back to Varget and Benchmark for my AR loads. (Benchmark for light bullets in .308/223 and Varget for heavier bullets in my AR-15 and IMR4064 in .308).

[HoustonBob]

According to this chart - CFE223 is the most temperature sensitive powder listed. Compare to Varget.

http://s955.photobucket.com/user/Nug...jfa9y.jpg.html

I have heard that some people have had success in taming its temperature sensitivity by using magnum primers in the load development process for cartridges that don't normally use magnum primers.

[Jimro]

From my experiences, there are not too many spherical powders that are NOT temperature sensitive.

There is a good bit of overlap for temperature sensitivity between stick and ball powders. Reloader 15 is a stick powder, but 50% more temp sensitive than Power Pro 2000-MR which is a ball powder. AR Comp is way less temp sensitive than IMR 4895.

I mention Reloader 15 and IMR 4895 because they are recognized as good match rifle powders, and have been shot in all sorts of temperature ranges (in fact, both were powders used for M118 match ammunition).

But...temperature sensitivity is really a matter of relativity being "more or less" than something else. There is nothing that has a temp sensitivity of 0.000 fps/degree.

Jimro

[cw308]

Dufus
I would agree . Hay buddy change that name your no .

[bigcountryeb]

Thanks for all the responses. I have been trying Ramshot xterminator in 5.56, mostly because there is 5.56 load data for it. Results have been ok so far but have not yet worked up a real accurate load. I think it's time to try a new powder in .308 as well. My next project for the .308 is working up a load with some HDY 178 gr. Eld-x bullets I picked up. Anybody have any powder suggestions. If possible I'm looking for something that works well in both
223 and .308

[cw308]

I like IMR 4064. It's a stick powder fills the case well, I shoot on the low side. I see you like speed also this powder doesn't meter as well as others. I don't reload a lot at a time 30 - 50 tops. I take my time with every case. Charge with the ChargeMaster 1500 and double check with the GemPro 250 for close to exact as possible. When reloading 30 rounds its no big deal. Volume is a different story.

Chris

[RC20]

Has anyone tried backing down 1/2 - 1 grain form their load and seeing what happens?

Also, for a ball powder, a magnum primer is known to give better ignition.

As they are also a bit more of a pop, also consider another 1/2 grain back down when using them.

[bigcountryeb]

RC20 - I certainly wouldn't shoot any more of these in warm weather without backing down at least a full grain. In cool weather they worked fine. So I may try them again in cool weather and back down a half grain them. However I would like to develop loads I can shoot in summer and winter since some of the best coyote hunting in Missouri is during the heat of the summer.

I haven't tried magnum primers, with the exception of the CCI No 41s which some say are magnum primers. Noticed no differences in .223 between those and standard small rifle primers

[onegun2]

I was using a different powder but on a very warm day I was shooting a load that had never given temp problems but I left my ammo which was in a translucent box exposed to the sun, started getting very some very high pressure signs.

[Mobuck]

"(.2 below max in my lee manual)"

Don't rely on the "LEE manual", it's nothing more than a compilation of data from other sources which may be outdated. Get a LYMAN or one of the powder company data sheets.

[Dufus]

It seems that no one knows how good IMR 4320 is in this caliber.

I DO unnerstand the need to try something late and supposedly great, but when I get something that can hit a fly between the eyes at 100 yards consistently, I keep using it.

I have a can of CFE 223, that I bought 3 years ago, but I have not opened it.

[Stats Shooter]

I have used 4320 with 150 and 165 gr pills. It doesn't get the velocity of some other powders in .308, but with 4320 and 165 Grain game kings, my SAIGA .308 is 1.5 MOA with a red dot at 2550 fps. I use it on hogs.

[Mobuck]

BTW:
"(.2 below max in my lee manual)" isn't a significant variance from MAXIMUM.
0.2 grains is within some folks' normal loading tolerances in a .308 sized case.

[Unclenick]

Hodgdon says 51.5 grains is maximum with the 150 grain Nosler BT in a Winchester case with the mild Federal 210M primer. That's a Larger capacity case than the LC and a different primer and both factors could contribute to higher peak pressure. If the Hornady soft point is any harder or longer than the Nosler, that will raise pressure, too.

Regarding temperature stability, for whatever bullet you use, get in the habit of finding the difference in the same data's maximum and starting load velocities, then dividing it by the difference in the charge weights given for the two velocities. This will give you some number of feet per second per grain of powder over the pressure range produced. All else being equal, the lower that number, is the less sensitive the powder will be either to temperature or charge weight error.

All else is not usually quite equal, but this simple method still identifies potential accuracy powders pretty well by picking out the powder that is most forgiving. In this instance, CFE 223 gets 67.7 fps/grain, while Varget gets 49.7 fps/grain and IMR 4064 gets 50.1 fps/grain. On Hodgdon's list, at 67.6 fps/grain, only IMR 3031 comes close to the oad sensitivity of CFE 223.