So I kind of suck at shooting pistols - Page 3

TunnelRat · April 2, 2023, 04:17 PM

To be clear I understand how MOA works. And I get why firearms are tested at longer distances (and I think your most recent example does a better job at getting that point across).

My point was to emphasize for others that relative differences in MOA remain the same and that what is more easily to observe farther out still occurs closer in. I say these things because in my experience people don’t always get them, even if you do.

**JohnKSa** · April 2, 2023, 04:32 PM

Quote:

...that what is more easily to observe farther out still occurs closer in.

That's not quite all of it. Because rounding and measurement errors play a part in the real world, what is easy to observe farther out may actually be completely obscured or "in the noise" at closer ranges.

It's still occurring, but it could get difficult to demonstrate that the measured differences are significant. The differences may not even show up at all in the final results--or what appears to be a difference could actually be affected more by random variation from measurement error than by a significant difference in the actual accuracy.

Recycled bullet · April 2, 2023, 04:42 PM

This is why I like twenty rounds groups when testing handloads in pistols. I do it to attempt analyze the targets that day under those particular conditions imposed,

"floating the wheat from the pebbles "

and to hopefully separate operator skill/error from equipment consistency/mechanical accuracy of the guns and loads.

You can always shoot better! How intensely do you want it?

That's how good you will get and no better!

It chaffes me to read and see pictures in the gun magazines of when 9mm handguns are shot three or five times for group at seven yards. That doesn't tell me anything useful.

That's a participation trophy.

I shot for the very first time a Taurus gx4 at twenty five yards at paper plates with federal HST and they all stayed the plate.
It's a start

**JohnKSa** · April 2, 2023, 04:46 PM

Quote:

It chaffes me to read and see pictures in the gun magazines of when 9mm handguns are shot three or five times for group at seven yards. That doesn't tell me anything useful.

It tells very little. The longer distances and larger group sizes are far more useful.

TunnelRat · April 2, 2023, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

That's not quite all of it. Because rounding and measurement errors play a part in the real world, what is easy to observe farther out may actually be completely obscured or "in the noise" at closer ranges.

It's still occurring, but it could get difficult to demonstrate that the measured differences are significant. The differences may not even show up at all in the final results--or what appears to be a difference could actually be affected more by random variation from measurement error than by a significant difference in the actual accuracy.

Hence the “more easy to observe” part of my post.

If you want to refine that further and explain why it’s easier to observe that’s fair.

Shadow9mm · April 2, 2023, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdoc42

This may be an aside, and if so, I apologize. If defensive shooting is generally 10 yards or less, why do those who test the various handguns in the gun magazines always (it seems) do so at 25 yards? I often think that if I am ever in a threatening situation separated by at least 25 yards, my first thought (if possible) would be to retreat rather than engage.

25 yds is not much space, and it would be easy for the threat to follow you. 100yds, ok you might be able to lose them. But 25 is not much of a head start. Obviously get behind concealment and or cover. But thinking the threat cant or wont come after you will get you killed.

Houndog · April 2, 2023, 08:13 PM

A little off topic - but I think everyone should spend some time shooting at distances of at least 25 yards. Shooting at 12" plates at 7 yards is great if you are trying to improve your speed - and I suppose recreates the most realistic self-defense scenarios you could potentially find yourself in. But nothing exposes weaknesses in your fundamentals like shooting small targets at distance. Even a slight misalignment of the sights, a small flinch, a poor trigger press, etc. will absolutely be exposed at those distances.

**JohnKSa** · April 2, 2023, 11:58 PM

I agree 100%. I try to spend at least a little bit of time shooting at 25yards (or the farthest the range allows if it's not a full 25yards every shooting session. It provides a quick sanity check to make sure technique isn't slipping.

Mike P. Wagner · March 26, 2024, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rothdel

I own a lot of pistols. Over time I have shot a lot of pistols. I kind of suck at shooting pistols. This seems to be an anomaly to admit on a shooting forum.

I'm not a competitor or handgun hunter. I like pistols for the history, mechanical operation, fun of shooting, and the potential (hopefully never) need for defense. In all of those settings I'm proficient enough. Think man sized target at 7-10 yards 100% of the time.

When I say I suck what I mean is shooting a .25 inch group at 50 yards which seems to be common place in most gun forums or on YouTube. I can't double tap resulting in one hole and 100 yard targets with a pistol....... maybe if it was a barn.

So here is the question...... in an area with out easy access to top shelf training with out considerable travel how best to gain skill to achieve the above feats? I recognize practice is important but I also recognize practice does not make perfect..... perfect practice makes perfect. I know I have learned some bad habits over the years that affect my accuracy at the range.

So YouTube? Books? Training systems? what do you all recommend so I can hit the wings off a fly at 100 yards off hand with iron sights out of a 2 inch barrel. (pretty sure someone has claimed something similar at some time so it must be a thing

)

Ok sarcasm intended with that last statement but I am serious what resources do you all recommend?

Very much a newbie here - but here is what I have decided to do.

1) Focus on one pistol until I get as accurate as I want to get

2) I have been using a Mantis X2 - dry firing - to help me with trigger control. It won’t help me with sight picture or flinch - it really just measures muzzle movement in the last couple of hundredths of a second before the hammer drops.

That has apparently helped me with shooting low and left at the range.

Since dry firing 100 rounds/day for a couple of weeks, my groups have gotten smaller and more centered.

I would like to get to the point where I can “call my shots” in the sense that I can consistently predict the point of impact at the hammer break - without waiting to see where the bullet hits the target.

Right now, that is true about 10% of the time, but I hope to improve. :-)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

stuckinthe60s · March 27, 2024, 04:49 AM

any bullseye shooter will tell you..........
when you shoot 50yd targets for any period of time.....when you shoot a 25yd target, it feel like its right in front of you.

its all in your head.
do it.
practice long distance.....then come back and smoke the targets.

15yds will feel like you can shake his hand its so close.

Nathan · March 27, 2024, 07:54 PM

This happens because of your change in focus. At 10 yds, most folks are blasting. At 25yds, you really have to aim. At 50yds, muscle control through the squeeze becomes hyper critical.

Returning back to 10 yds is bringing that trigger control back to short yardage where you can really apply that smoothness and be faster because of it.

Extending the yardage is helping you break the skill down to digestible bites. That is the key. Jerry talks about minimizing everything that is not shooting or something like that.

1972RedNeck · March 27, 2024, 11:21 PM

Agreed. After pushing myself to 100 yards with handguns, I can get a pretty decent group at 10 yards with any half decent handgun as fast as I can pull the trigger.

PzGren · March 28, 2024, 06:19 AM

I was shooting handguns competitively for a long time and enjoyed good coaches and mentors. Eventually I carried the torch on and coached others and I observed a wide range in performance, while a couple of people had no problem to get 15 rounds into the black of the UIT pistol target at 25 meters the first time that they picked a handgun up, some needed years. The ones that performed well from the beginning and could incorporate the formerly given instructions into their shooting, were also excelling in other sports that required coordination.

A very good friend of mine was among those unfortunate guys that hovered around 80 to 83% and it took a lot of one-on-one training to get him to shoot 90%. Especially helpful was video footage of him shooting and intermittently using snaps caps.

What also helped him to go back to the basics and one of the best ways to learn them is free!

https://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter1.htm

PzGren · March 28, 2024, 06:30 AM

...and FWIW, group size means very little. Scoring is done differently on paper for accuracy and speed. A hit in the A-zone or if the plates fall, make time is the ultimate factor. Standard falling plates are 8" in diameter and 10 yards for handguns is the minimum safety distance for properly angled targets.
We usually shot at 15 yards and to build up the speed to shave just one second of the six hits, it takes a lot of rounds and eventually each shooter will hit his personal "ceiling".

April 2, 2023, 04:17 PM	#51
TunnelRat Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 12,212	So I kind of suck at shooting pistols To be clear I understand how MOA works. And I get why firearms are tested at longer distances (and I think your most recent example does a better job at getting that point across). My point was to emphasize for others that relative differences in MOA remain the same and that what is more easily to observe farther out still occurs closer in. I say these things because in my experience people don’t always get them, even if you do.

April 2, 2023, 11:58 PM	#58
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,002	I agree 100%. I try to spend at least a little bit of time shooting at 25yards (or the farthest the range allows if it's not a full 25yards every shooting session. It provides a quick sanity check to make sure technique isn't slipping. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

March 27, 2024, 04:49 AM	#60
stuckinthe60s Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2017 Location: Va., Ct., Mo.. Posts: 878	any bullseye shooter will tell you.......... when you shoot 50yd targets for any period of time.....when you shoot a 25yd target, it feel like its right in front of you. its all in your head. do it. practice long distance.....then come back and smoke the targets. 15yds will feel like you can shake his hand its so close. __________________ Retired Military Aviation Former Member Navy Shooting Team Distinguished Pistol Shot,NRA Shotgun/Pistol Instructor NSSA All American, Skeet/Trap Range Owner

April 2, 2023, 04:42 PM	#53
Recycled bullet Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2022 Posts: 342	This is why I like twenty rounds groups when testing handloads in pistols. I do it to attempt analyze the targets that day under those particular conditions imposed, "floating the wheat from the pebbles " and to hopefully separate operator skill/error from equipment consistency/mechanical accuracy of the guns and loads. You can always shoot better! How intensely do you want it? That's how good you will get and no better! It chaffes me to read and see pictures in the gun magazines of when 9mm handguns are shot three or five times for group at seven yards. That doesn't tell me anything useful. That's a participation trophy. I shot for the very first time a Taurus gx4 at twenty five yards at paper plates with federal HST and they all stayed the plate. It's a start

April 2, 2023, 08:13 PM	#57
Houndog Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2006 Posts: 324	A little off topic - but I think everyone should spend some time shooting at distances of at least 25 yards. Shooting at 12" plates at 7 yards is great if you are trying to improve your speed - and I suppose recreates the most realistic self-defense scenarios you could potentially find yourself in. But nothing exposes weaknesses in your fundamentals like shooting small targets at distance. Even a slight misalignment of the sights, a small flinch, a poor trigger press, etc. will absolutely be exposed at those distances.

March 27, 2024, 07:54 PM	#61
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,334	This happens because of your change in focus. At 10 yds, most folks are blasting. At 25yds, you really have to aim. At 50yds, muscle control through the squeeze becomes hyper critical. Returning back to 10 yds is bringing that trigger control back to short yardage where you can really apply that smoothness and be faster because of it. Extending the yardage is helping you break the skill down to digestible bites. That is the key. Jerry talks about minimizing everything that is not shooting or something like that.

March 27, 2024, 11:21 PM	#62
1972RedNeck Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2015 Posts: 203	Agreed. After pushing myself to 100 yards with handguns, I can get a pretty decent group at 10 yards with any half decent handgun as fast as I can pull the trigger.

March 28, 2024, 06:19 AM	#63
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,260	I was shooting handguns competitively for a long time and enjoyed good coaches and mentors. Eventually I carried the torch on and coached others and I observed a wide range in performance, while a couple of people had no problem to get 15 rounds into the black of the UIT pistol target at 25 meters the first time that they picked a handgun up, some needed years. The ones that performed well from the beginning and could incorporate the formerly given instructions into their shooting, were also excelling in other sports that required coordination. A very good friend of mine was among those unfortunate guys that hovered around 80 to 83% and it took a lot of one-on-one training to get him to shoot 90%. Especially helpful was video footage of him shooting and intermittently using snaps caps. What also helped him to go back to the basics and one of the best ways to learn them is free! https://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter1.htm

March 28, 2024, 06:30 AM	#64
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,260	...and FWIW, group size means very little. Scoring is done differently on paper for accuracy and speed. A hit in the A-zone or if the plates fall, make time is the ultimate factor. Standard falling plates are 8" in diameter and 10 yards for handguns is the minimum safety distance for properly angled targets. We usually shot at 15 yards and to build up the speed to shave just one second of the six hits, it takes a lot of rounds and eventually each shooter will hit his personal "ceiling".