Canton OH Police CCW Holder Encounter - Page 11

majmack · November 13, 2011, 11:33 AM

Hi Shortwave.

I'm in Trumbull County. My father lives down in Washington County, so I travel down along the river pretty often.

ltc444 · November 13, 2011, 12:06 PM

Since Harless has a documented history of this type of behavior and the Canton "Management" failed to act, can they be sued personnally?

I know that corporate managers can be sued seperately and severally for misconduct when conducting corporate business. Can this technique be applied to government officials when they fail to act?

**Spats McGee** · November 14, 2011, 02:02 PM

Welcome to The Firing Line, majmack! As much as I'm enjoying speculating on this, it's really nice to have someone around that was actually there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hal

Spats - sounds a whole lot like the city of Canton would benifit enormously if you spent a few months up this way and told them how to run things!

I'm a half hour North of Canton & there's just my wife and the two dogs and myself in the house. You could have your choice of three spare bedrooms to bunk in

Thank you, Hal! That's very kind of you. I've spent most of my legal career defending police officers, so you just let them know that I'm available for the right price!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltc444

Since Harless has a documented history of this type of behavior and the Canton "Management" failed to act, can they be sued personnally?

I know that corporate managers can be sued seperately and severally for misconduct when conducting corporate business. Can this technique be applied to government officials when they fail to act?

Yes, no, and maybe. (Be warned: here comes some hair-splitting.)

From the perspective of the Plaintiff's attorney, there are two goals to litigation under 42 USC 1983: (1) Make the client whole; and (2) prevent violations in the future. Both of these are accomplished (primarily) by way of money. I haven't checked on how things run in the 6th Circuit, but in the 8th, cities are immune from punitive damages. Compensatory damages are available as against cities, but no punitives. So how does a plaintiff get punitives? By suing officers individually and officially, and naming the City as a defendant as well. That's why you see cases with names like, "John Doe v. The City of Bucksnort, James Baxter, in his individual and official capacities, Ralph Smith, in his individual and official capacities . . . "

Can "management" be sued individually? Yes, but the real question is whether they can be successfully sued. The Plaintiff could bring actions against Harless' superiors personally for things like: (1) failure to train; and (2) failure to supervise. Without doing some real trial-prep kind of discovery, I can't tell you whether he could succeed in those lawsuits, though.

As for the city itself (& here's where it gets interesting for me), . . . Even assuming that there has been a violation of the Plaintiff's rights, the City of Canton will not be held liable for an isolated incident of a tortfeasor (Harless), unless the tortfeasor is a policymaker. I have seen no indication that Harless is a policymaker. On the other hand, if the Plaintiff can show a "policy, practice or custom," on the part of the City of Canton that leads to the violation of the Plaintiff's rights, the City of Canton (the corporate entity) can be held liable for the violation. Somewhere I read that Harless: (a) is on leave; and (b) has a hearing scheduled for review both of this case and another traffic stop in which he was involved. If a pattern develops, that Harless did this stuff on a regular basis, especially if his superiors knew about it, then the Plaintiff will try to bootstrap that pattern to the city to show that there was a "policy, practice or custom" of violating the rights of citizens.

ltc444 · November 14, 2011, 03:52 PM

spats thanks for the analysis. My experience with liability as a corporate manager is in the environmental arena. I maintained a professional liability policy to defend me personnally. This was done because as my counsel explained the Company could not pay for my legal expenses our use their counsel to defend me. Conflict of intrest.

They could only reimburse me for expenses after the litigation was resolved.

We are probably getting outside the scope of the sites rules.

However in light of the Fulton county police shotting this should be of intrest.

drcook · November 15, 2011, 10:03 AM

1. There are actually 3 videos showing Harless' behavior. One of our local newstations did some digging and found this out and reported on it

2. IIRC there are 16 internal affairs investigation of Harless

3. Harless has had issues of turning off the dashcam, IIRC that is part of the IA investigations

The Canton PD is well aware of Harless and his behavior.

therealdeal · November 15, 2011, 10:48 AM

I hope Harless is all done.

Ditto_95 · November 15, 2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

I hope Harless is all done.

Well done, like bacon.

shortwave · November 15, 2011, 11:25 PM

Quote:

I hope Harless is all done

Quote:

Well done, like bacon.

He MAY(?) never tote a badge again but you can be sure he'll go out on disability. Believe thats what he's currently working on while he's on paid sick leave. Also, if you think about the chain of events, it was in the City of Cantons best interest if Harless was under doctors care and didn't have to show up for Bartletts trial. Bartletts attorney would have probably loved to rip Harless apart on the stand. Convenient how these things happen, eh!

With 14 yrs service,I think is what Harless has towards his pension plus additional disability compensation, that will be a nice monthly income for the rest of his life.

Hitthespot · November 17, 2011, 08:47 AM

Well i'm sure everyone would agree that being removed from his position in law enforcement is better for everyone, citizens and law enforcement a like for a mulititude of reasons, many of which was discussed in this thread.

And I guess I don't have a problem with him going out on partial pension, he put his 14 years in, and we will never know, he may have started out as fine expample of our finest. Where I have a mental block and problem is with this talk about disability. If he was so mentally incapacitated that he should have been on disabliltiy, then how is it he was able to continue to walk the streets with a gun on his belt and capable of greatly effecting innocent peoples lives. If it was me being railroaded, and they ruled him mentally incompacitated, I would be looking for the best team of lawers available, and I'd be asking, (with lots of documented proof) Gentlemen how is it your city allowed a mentally disabled cop to threaten to kill me over and over one night.

I am happy to start seeing some good news in all of this and it's nice to have at least a tiny bit of belief in the system again, but to me this was just aboslute power corrupting absolutely. In my opinon, charges should be brought against him and my form of disability would involve some time looking throught solid steel bars. Him and his partners behaviour is so far over the top and corrupt, I just don't see how anything but charges and expamples being made out of the two of them can't happen. I hate to see conspiracy and corruption in everything but I still say the whole law enforcement system is broken in that city, and it is a terrible, terrible thing. They new how he acted, he had been doing it with tons of examples for years, and they new he wasn't disabled. It is a mantality thats starts right at the top in that city and has unfortuneately filtered all the way down to the officers.

When the court finally gets its hands on things like this, it's nice to see so far, that at least they have some assemblance of law and order. Kudos to the judge so far in this case.

Spats, I have enjoyed your posts. A layman and average person like me being able to see the problems from a completely different view / angle has been benificial and educational.

ltc444 · December 15, 2011, 01:17 PM

Any further developments on this case.

updates on harliss.

drcook · December 18, 2011, 11:26 AM

The disciplinary hearing was held. Harless didn't show up. The union pres was there as was their lawyer.

The newschannels tried to get a statement from the city (safety director ?, ie: the person who will make the decision[other position??}) representative, his last name is Mead. He said he was taking everything into consideration.

The police chief is retiring and accepting another city position before the Ohio double dipping law that is on the books gets passed. Hopefully it is retro-active.

Patriot86 · December 18, 2011, 04:02 PM

Seriously....why are all of these bad cities STRAIGHT out of the show "The Wire". I thought that show was totally fake when I first watched it but they got a lot of the political aspect of policing right on second glance.

DogoDon · January 11, 2012, 11:23 AM

http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x63833...n-police-force

**Aguila Blanca** · January 11, 2012, 01:02 PM

I am inordinately glad he has been fired, but I find it disheartening to see that the "thin blue line" is still sufficiently intact that other officers donated their unused sick time to allow the clown to continue receiving a paycheck long after the city should have stopped paying him. PTSD or not, he was CLEARLY unfit to be wearing a uniform or carrying a gun. The excuse that somebody bit his fingers eight YEARS ago and thereby caused PTSD is not convincing to me, and I'm a Vietnam veteran who might know a little about PTSD.

And if he DID have PTSD for eight years, and the city of Canton didn't pick up on it despite all the previous complaints regarding his behavior -- shame on the city of canton and the Canton PD.

zxcvbob · January 11, 2012, 01:05 PM

So now he'll sue for disability pay.

CowTowner · January 11, 2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

So now he'll sue for disability pay.

Only if his appeal is denied. He's fighting his dismissal.

TheGoldenState · January 11, 2012, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Only if his appeal is denied. He's fighting his dismissal.

With that video, there is no way his appeal will be successful.

That is simply outrageous.

What a disgrace.

CowTowner · January 11, 2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

there is no way his appeal will be successful.

Never say never.

TheGoldenState · January 11, 2012, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Never say never.

Technically, I didn't

shortwave · January 11, 2012, 04:47 PM

My thought mirror Aguila Blanca's to a tee.

Shame on the fellow LEO's for donating their time to Harless. He did nothing but made them and the rest of the Canton PD dept. look bad.

Being a little familiar with the public service system, my gut feeling is Harless's will eventually achieve getting his partial retirement and disability. It's obvious he's been working on not only dodging going to court but getting disability from the onset of this incident as he went out on sick leave almost immediately after this case went public. A sure sign Harless has been around long enough to learn the system.
Too, Mr Allen(the union rep), when talking to the press, wanted it to be well known about Harless and PTSD. Look how many times he mentions it in the article. Want to guess what will be discussed at the appeals hearing.

I'll go out on a limb and say, combining both his partial retirement and his disability, he'll probably go out on a monthly income equal to an officer putting in his/her full 20yrs....all because everyone that worked around him chose to turn their heads... from his partners, clear up the chain of command, not excluding the Canton prosecutors office that no doubt have seen past dash cam of Harless's actions unbecoming an officer.

Hope I'm wrong...we'll see.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 11, 2012, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortwave

I'll go out on a limb and say, combining both his partial retirement and his disability, he'll probably go out on a monthly income equal to an officer putting in his/her full 20yrs....all because everyone that worked around him chose to turn their heads... from his partners, clear up the chain of command, not excluding the Canton prosecutors office that no doubt have seen past dash cam of Harless's actions unbecoming an officer.

I won't bet against you. As the saying goes, "The fix is in." You can see it coming from a mile away. It stinks, but that's the way the system works.

And you are correct. It will be possible only because EVERYONE in the Canton PD turned a blind eye to an officer who was obviously a walking time bomb for a long time. His actions should not have been tolerated.

And police officers wonder why we "civilians" don't respect the police. Here's the reason: you don't "police" your own ranks.

ltc444 · January 11, 2012, 06:54 PM

Quote "...threats of death or violence..." per the Public Safety Director.

Why have criminal charges not been filed against Harless? Had an ordinary citzen made the threats Harless made, they would have been arrested and probably all ready been convicted based on the evidence of the video and witness'.

armoredman · January 11, 2012, 08:27 PM

He'll get his pension and full retirement, and laugh all the way to the bank. But, he is NOT a police officer anymore, so the NEXT time he does something this stupid, (which there will be, he has no self control), he will not have the power of the Dept behind him.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 11, 2012, 10:33 PM

Sobering thought: If Harless prevails in arbitration/appeal, he will be allowed to retire -- which will then make him eligible to carry a firearm everywhere in the United States under the provisions of the LEOSA.

:EEK:

ltc444 · February 17, 2012, 06:12 PM

It has been a while since anyone posted an update on this case.

Does any one have new information.

November 15, 2011, 10:48 AM	#256
therealdeal Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 627	I hope Harless is all done. __________________ NRA Distinguished Life Member "Abraham Lincoln freed all men, but Sam Colt made them all equal." (post Civil War slogan)

November 17, 2011, 08:47 AM	#259
Hitthespot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 227	Well i'm sure everyone would agree that being removed from his position in law enforcement is better for everyone, citizens and law enforcement a like for a mulititude of reasons, many of which was discussed in this thread. And I guess I don't have a problem with him going out on partial pension, he put his 14 years in, and we will never know, he may have started out as fine expample of our finest. Where I have a mental block and problem is with this talk about disability. If he was so mentally incapacitated that he should have been on disabliltiy, then how is it he was able to continue to walk the streets with a gun on his belt and capable of greatly effecting innocent peoples lives. If it was me being railroaded, and they ruled him mentally incompacitated, I would be looking for the best team of lawers available, and I'd be asking, (with lots of documented proof) Gentlemen how is it your city allowed a mentally disabled cop to threaten to kill me over and over one night. I am happy to start seeing some good news in all of this and it's nice to have at least a tiny bit of belief in the system again, but to me this was just aboslute power corrupting absolutely. In my opinon, charges should be brought against him and my form of disability would involve some time looking throught solid steel bars. Him and his partners behaviour is so far over the top and corrupt, I just don't see how anything but charges and expamples being made out of the two of them can't happen. I hate to see conspiracy and corruption in everything but I still say the whole law enforcement system is broken in that city, and it is a terrible, terrible thing. They new how he acted, he had been doing it with tons of examples for years, and they new he wasn't disabled. It is a mantality thats starts right at the top in that city and has unfortuneately filtered all the way down to the officers. When the court finally gets its hands on things like this, it's nice to see so far, that at least they have some assemblance of law and order. Kudos to the judge so far in this case. Spats, I have enjoyed your posts. A layman and average person like me being able to see the problems from a completely different view / angle has been benificial and educational. Last edited by Hitthespot; November 17, 2011 at 09:15 AM.

January 11, 2012, 11:23 AM	#263
DogoDon Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2010 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 368	Update: Officer has been fired http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x63833...n-police-force

January 11, 2012, 01:05 PM	#265
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	So now he'll sue for disability pay. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

November 13, 2011, 11:33 AM	#251
majmack Junior Member Join Date: November 12, 2011 Location: Eastern Ohio Posts: 2	Hi Shortwave. I'm in Trumbull County. My father lives down in Washington County, so I travel down along the river pretty often.

November 13, 2011, 12:06 PM	#252
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	Since Harless has a documented history of this type of behavior and the Canton "Management" failed to act, can they be sued personnally? I know that corporate managers can be sued seperately and severally for misconduct when conducting corporate business. Can this technique be applied to government officials when they fail to act?

November 14, 2011, 03:52 PM	#254
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	spats thanks for the analysis. My experience with liability as a corporate manager is in the environmental arena. I maintained a professional liability policy to defend me personnally. This was done because as my counsel explained the Company could not pay for my legal expenses our use their counsel to defend me. Conflict of intrest. They could only reimburse me for expenses after the litigation was resolved. We are probably getting outside the scope of the sites rules. However in light of the Fulton county police shotting this should be of intrest.

November 15, 2011, 10:03 AM	#255
drcook Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2009 Posts: 285	1. There are actually 3 videos showing Harless' behavior. One of our local newstations did some digging and found this out and reported on it 2. IIRC there are 16 internal affairs investigation of Harless 3. Harless has had issues of turning off the dashcam, IIRC that is part of the IA investigations The Canton PD is well aware of Harless and his behavior.

December 15, 2011, 01:17 PM	#260
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	Any further developments on this case. updates on harliss.

December 18, 2011, 11:26 AM	#261
drcook Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2009 Posts: 285	The disciplinary hearing was held. Harless didn't show up. The union pres was there as was their lawyer. The newschannels tried to get a statement from the city (safety director ?, ie: the person who will make the decision[other position??}) representative, his last name is Mead. He said he was taking everything into consideration. The police chief is retiring and accepting another city position before the Ohio double dipping law that is on the books gets passed. Hopefully it is retro-active.

December 18, 2011, 04:02 PM	#262
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	Seriously....why are all of these bad cities STRAIGHT out of the show "The Wire". I thought that show was totally fake when I first watched it but they got a lot of the political aspect of policing right on second glance.

January 11, 2012, 01:02 PM	#264
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,479	I am inordinately glad he has been fired, but I find it disheartening to see that the "thin blue line" is still sufficiently intact that other officers donated their unused sick time to allow the clown to continue receiving a paycheck long after the city should have stopped paying him. PTSD or not, he was CLEARLY unfit to be wearing a uniform or carrying a gun. The excuse that somebody bit his fingers eight YEARS ago and thereby caused PTSD is not convincing to me, and I'm a Vietnam veteran who might know a little about PTSD. And if he DID have PTSD for eight years, and the city of Canton didn't pick up on it despite all the previous complaints regarding his behavior -- shame on the city of canton and the Canton PD.

January 11, 2012, 04:47 PM	#270
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	My thought mirror Aguila Blanca's to a tee. Shame on the fellow LEO's for donating their time to Harless. He did nothing but made them and the rest of the Canton PD dept. look bad. Being a little familiar with the public service system, my gut feeling is Harless's will eventually achieve getting his partial retirement and disability. It's obvious he's been working on not only dodging going to court but getting disability from the onset of this incident as he went out on sick leave almost immediately after this case went public. A sure sign Harless has been around long enough to learn the system. Too, Mr Allen(the union rep), when talking to the press, wanted it to be well known about Harless and PTSD. Look how many times he mentions it in the article. Want to guess what will be discussed at the appeals hearing. I'll go out on a limb and say, combining both his partial retirement and his disability, he'll probably go out on a monthly income equal to an officer putting in his/her full 20yrs....all because everyone that worked around him chose to turn their heads... from his partners, clear up the chain of command, not excluding the Canton prosecutors office that no doubt have seen past dash cam of Harless's actions unbecoming an officer. Hope I'm wrong...we'll see.

January 11, 2012, 06:54 PM	#272
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	Quote "...threats of death or violence..." per the Public Safety Director. Why have criminal charges not been filed against Harless? Had an ordinary citzen made the threats Harless made, they would have been arrested and probably all ready been convicted based on the evidence of the video and witness'.

January 11, 2012, 08:27 PM	#273
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	He'll get his pension and full retirement, and laugh all the way to the bank. But, he is NOT a police officer anymore, so the NEXT time he does something this stupid, (which there will be, he has no self control), he will not have the power of the Dept behind him.

January 11, 2012, 10:33 PM	#274
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,479	Sobering thought: If Harless prevails in arbitration/appeal, he will be allowed to retire -- which will then make him eligible to carry a firearm everywhere in the United States under the provisions of the LEOSA. :EEK:

February 17, 2012, 06:12 PM	#275
ltc444 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2011 Location: Vernon AZ Posts: 1,195	It has been a while since anyone posted an update on this case. Does any one have new information.