The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 1, 2018, 07:11 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,109
Originally Posted by FireForged
...I am here to enter into fruitful discussion...
I've found discussion to be fruitful only when participants bring more to the table than empty opinions snatched out of the air and unsupported by relevant knowledge, experience or evidence.
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old February 1, 2018, 08:08 PM   #27
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,069
I have not seen anyone note a gaming context in this thread. Airsoft gaming is completely separate.

Simunitions are much more rare. If you have them great, most don't. Are you arguing nothing is better than something? If so, why?
zincwarrior is offline  
Old February 1, 2018, 08:52 PM   #28
Glenn E. Meyer
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 19,655
Sims are expensive and limited as to distribution. Also can one cite any evidence that well thought out air soft FOF is ineffective? Since the professional discussions are quite positive about their usage, it behooves a doubter to give some credentials and experience to back up a claim. Having been through exercises with all of them, I cannot tell the difference between each in a well planned and supervised exercise.
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 1, 2018, 08:54 PM   #29
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,521
Originally Posted by FireForged
I think FoF should be done within a proper ( non gaming) context, preferably with simunitions
And what exactly does Simunitions bring that Airsoft does not, other than the use of real firearms? There are some very high quality Airsoft guns that are gas blowback and have decent weight. Some of the Airsoft guns I have are surprisingly accurate (within their limited distance). You don't get the little paint splotch, but if the training is serious, you won't have people say they didn't get hit when they did get hit.

Simuitions are far more expensive than Airsoft and finding FoF training that uses them is much harder than getting some shooting buddies to work on tactics. While I believe that good training is worth investing in, does that mean that people who can't afford those expensive classes should just do without?

As for reality, I believe that Airsoft can be even more realistic than even shooting live ammo as it can be safely done in just about any environment (private property where no one is going to call the police and say active shooter). How many of us actually have access to police style simulations (Hogan's Alley) type training? Besides, those targets don't shoot back. Who want's to repaint a building after shooting it up with simuintions?

As for the whole "Not Realistic" argument, training will NEVER be fully realistic since you know you are NOT GOING TO GET SHOT! Airsoft is cheap and convenient, which allows you to train more often. Still feel Airsoft is useless?
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old February 1, 2018, 09:25 PM   #30
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,676
And what exactly does Simunitions bring that Airsoft does not
It would be incredibly unusual for sims to be commercially used in anything other than professional tactical training. Airsoft on the other hand is generally associated with the sport of airsoft and those things relating to that universe. Can it(airsoft) be used in other arenas such as self defense training? sure.. but what instruction the OP is actually considering or what outfit is offering it has not been stated.

Still feel Airsoft is useless?
I did not use the term useless. I did express some reservations
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; February 1, 2018 at 09:33 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old February 1, 2018, 10:01 PM   #31
Senior Member
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,521
So I want to take some actual force on force training for concealed carry. It really appeals to me as a martial artist. The thing is I know that these courses can be expensive. And I have noticed that there is one in my area that doesn’t seem crazy expensive, but they use airsoft. How does everyone here feel about using airsoft guns as a force on force trainer? I assume the guns would be gas blowback and realistic. Do you think my reservations are unfounded or do you think one should be very hesitant of the use of these?

I really don’t know what I would be looking for in terms of training and what kind of schools to look at. I know how to look for a good martial arts gym and I assume that there is some translation for places that teach self-defense shooting. But I still would like some assistance.
As I stated, Airsoft is less expensive than simunitions and can be done almost anywhere. The original poster's concern was whether Airsoft was realistic enough to be worth it. Like I said, ask to observe a class and if they take the training seriously, it can't hurt.
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old February 1, 2018, 10:07 PM   #32
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,519
The issue isn't the tool itself.

The issue is whether the people using the tool for training know what they're doing.

Or whether they don't.

There are a lot of very well-qualified, excellent trainers doing FOF exercises with their classes. These trainers use a wide variety of tools that include Sims, Airsoft, plain dummy guns, laser-equipped dummy guns, etc.

There are also a whole metric ton of instant experts who have no idea what they're doing but think they do. These guys also use a wide variety of tools that include Sims, Airsoft, plain dummy guns, laser-equipped dummy guns, etc.

This whole argument reminds me a lot of a person pointing to something across the room and trying to get their dog to look at it too. The dog just keeps looking at the person's finger, instead of what the finger is pointing toward.

Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old February 1, 2018, 10:23 PM   #33
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,821
pax nailed it.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old February 1, 2018, 10:44 PM   #34
Senior Member
Join Date: April 22, 2016
Posts: 1,684
Putting shots on target should be a small part of FoF training. A lot of the skills could be accomplished with a blue gun that doesn’t fire anything. When do you draw? How do you cover an aggressor? When do you shoot or not shoot? Weapon retention. To focus on the equipment too much seems to discard the valuable lessons outside of putting shots on target. As noted above a major component of these should be shoot / no shoot decision making. Simunition, airsoft, paintball, or a declared “bang” should not matter to a good portion of the training
Lohman446 is offline  
Old February 7, 2018, 02:29 PM   #35
Senior Member
Join Date: June 22, 2017
Posts: 968
Airsoft fires a non-lethal plastic BB. But it fires it with enough velocity to have a decent ballistic profile over short distances and leave a tell-tale bruise if you're not wearing padding.

When my oldest son was a teenager he and some of his friends would do some war games in the backyard. It wasn't organized enough or serious enough to be called "training" although some lessons were clearly learned.

The rules we formulated had everyone wear eye protection with just a t-shirt and shorts. All shots were to be directed to center-of-mass. When you got hit you were expected to remove yourself from the game. But, to keep everyone honest, after the game was over, everyone took off their shirt to prove they had not cheated.

I liked those games because Airsoft delivered one thing other simulations don't, pain. When you get hit, it hurts. And that changed behavior. Boys who would play Hollywood and charge ahead into someone shooting at them in a laser tag game thought twice about doing that when it meant possibly getting hit with 20 Airsoft BBs.

Based on that limited experience, I can certainly see how Airsoft could have a place in a well-designed training program.
hdwhit is offline  

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:35 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent:
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09028 seconds with 10 queries