.45 GAP - Page 2

TruthTellers · March 17, 2018, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moosemike

I was wondering if Glock 37,38, and 39's were cheaper on average?

The asking prices aren't, at least not on gunbroker for used GAP's. Gen 2 and even 3 .40 S&W Glocks go for less than what the GAP Glocks do. I think if you were to find one at a local store and you knew the owner well, you could talk him down to under 300 for it.

But, whatever savings you think you're getting from the gun, you'll be paying for in ammo.

**Tom Servo** · March 17, 2018, 08:47 PM

There's one other factor you don't hear mentioned much, and that involves duty gear.

Originally, the guns chambered for the new loading were to have the exact same dimensions as their 9mm counterparts, not just in the frame but in the slide as well. Glock made it a selling point that the new guns would fit the same holsters and magazine pouches.

So, the sales pitch was this: you don't have to invest in new holsters (which are expensive on an individual basis and ludicrous on an agency scale) and you could trade the old Glocks in at a 1/1 ratio.

It's good that cooler heads prevailed, because there was a a problem. The test ammo around which Glock developed the gun ran at different pressure than the commercial loads. The result? Big cycling problems with factory ammo. The solution? Well...um. Oh.

More mass had to be added to the slide, which made it slightly wider than originally promise. As such, the promise of using the gun with existing duty gear pretty much evaporated. Condolences to my friends with GSP.

TruthTellers · March 17, 2018, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDW4ME

45 Gap in Glock 38 (for ex) would be more popular if nationwide AWB (1994-2004) or in stupid 10 round mag limit states.

A Glock 19/23 with artificially restricted 10 round mag is sick / stupid.
Glock 38 has same grip 19/23 but holds 8 rounds, as designed, no stupid artificial limit.

Some folks if limited to 10 rounds would prefer larger bullets with a 9mm size grip = 45 GAP.

I was thinking the same thing that magazine capacity limits would be the only reason to use .45 GAP. Even then, I think what I'd rather do is just buy a Glock 26 because I don't believe in the superiority of a .45.

Then again, I'm a guy who owns three .40 S&W guns and a 9mm conversion barrel.

Ruger45LC · March 17, 2018, 10:28 PM

I had a G38 once, it was a good shooter but the .45 GAP could have been done differently and I think it would have had a better chance of overall success.

One, they should have kept the thin 9mm/.40 slide instead of putting the fat .45/10mm thickness slides on them, it killed holster commonality.

Two, anyone should know that power sells and quite frankly coming out with something that mimics a std. pressure .45 ACP but requires a different cartridge is not a winning combination. Had they treated it like a mini .45 Super/460 Rowland and made it a 35-40K PSI round like the .40 and 357 SIG, it could have beat even 45 ACP +P ballistics in a smaller framed gun. That I feel, would have have sold like hot cakes.

Three, the name sucks. GAP doesn't sound good, but they didn't need another ".45". Simply call it the .450 something-or-another.

That's it....thinner slide, more power and a better name.

**44 AMP** · March 18, 2018, 01:04 AM

Quote:

The GAP does everything the .45 ACP does, except...

..fit and work in 1911A1 style guns, Sigs, SA revolvers, DA revolvers not using clips, or anything else chambered in .45acp...

As for Georgia police adopting the .45GAP, isn't GLock's US HQ in Georgia??

kozak6 · March 18, 2018, 03:39 AM

Quote:

I was wondering if Glock 37,38, and 39's were cheaper on average?

I don't remember which specific model, but I saw some police trades for $250 last year.

**Tom Servo** · March 18, 2018, 08:02 AM

Quote:

As for Georgia police adopting the .45GAP, isn't GLock's US HQ in Georgia??

Yep, in Smyrna. Folks here love their Tupperware.

CDW4ME · March 18, 2018, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

I was thinking the same thing that magazine capacity limits would be the only reason to use .45 GAP. Even then, I think what I'd rather do is just buy a Glock 26 because I don't believe in the superiority of a .45.

Then again, I'm a guy who owns three .40 S&W guns and a 9mm conversion barrel.

Glock 26 is a good choice for 10 round limit states, maximum limit and that is the capacity the pistol was designed to hold. (I've got a 26)

Whether one believes 9mm equivalent to 45 has no impact on expanded diameters, 45 makes a bigger hole and these penetrated same depth:
For perspective 9mm is on a dime, 45 on a quarter

Some people believe

making a hole about the size of a quarter has more potential for ASAP result (same shot placement) than a hole the size of a dime.

Walt Sherrill · March 18, 2018, 11:42 AM

While .45 GAP isn't my round of choice, I did pick up a Glock 37 and 38 at fire-sale prices last year. (One unfired, and one a police trade-in, but both looked like new.) They're both very soft-shooting .45s (.45 GAP, I know, I know) -- and I shoot them better than most of the .45s I've owned.

I found a conversion barrel for the 37, which allows me to shoot the 37 with only a barrel and ejector change -- and I suspect it might work with the stock ejector when shooting .40, or vice versa.

I put an Apex Tactical trigger system into the Glock 37, and it's a nice shooting gun. My son and I were out shooting recently (he's a State Trooper and enjoys using his AR), and I was hitting metal targets at 40 and 50 yards (in .40 S&W) with relative ease. (I don't typically try hitting targets at that distance, and with some of the .40s I've owned, I often have a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn.

The Glock .45 GAP guns are clearly not meant to satisfy everybody's tastes, but then, neither are many .45 ACP. guns. (I couldn't stand the original Glock .45 -- I felt like I was holding a 2x4!

With regard to bullet size/caliber: I agree with most of the folks here that wound channel size (i.e., caliber) is NOT as important as PENETRATION DEPTH.

In a self defense situation, you need to STOP the other party quickly -- which comes from central nervous system hits (and good shot placement). If you think the party bleeding out is a factor, consider the fact that while he or she is bleeding out, that person is still able to STOP YOU. If you can shoot a larger caliber as well as you shoot other calibers, that's a plus.

I'll continue to carry a 9mm weapon, when I carry, but I will keep a .45 GAP gun in the bedside table at night. (When I get up, it goes back into a small, screwed-down gun safe in the bedroom closet.)

TruthTellers · March 18, 2018, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

..fit and work in 1911A1 style guns, Sigs, SA revolvers, DA revolvers not using clips, or anything else chambered in .45acp...

As for Georgia police adopting the .45GAP, isn't GLock's US HQ in Georgia??

.45 GAP will work in .45 ACP revolvers that use moon clips and the Charter Arms Pitbull.

**44 AMP** · March 20, 2018, 10:29 AM

Quote:

, DA revolvers not using clips,

I was unaware of the Charter Arms model, thought "not using clips" pretty well covered it, thanks for pointing out the exception.

JERRYS. · March 20, 2018, 10:40 AM

I think a good question is what does the 45 gap do that the 40 s&w didn't do already?

the 40 s&w was suppose to be the answer to the more power than a 9 mm and more capacity than a 45 acp.

(yes I know the 40 came about because people couldn't handle the 10 mm....)

carguychris · March 20, 2018, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JERRYS.

I think a good question is what does the 45 gap do that the 40 s&w didn't do already?

Bigger holes
Heavier bullets
Has GLOCK® in its name, rather than smith & wesson

JERRYS. · March 20, 2018, 10:55 AM

carguychris, the two things you mentioned are virtually identical in ballistic gel and real world shootings involving the best from each caliber. so what's the advantage, why switch?

carguychris · March 20, 2018, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JERRYS.

so what's the advantage, why switch?

Refer to your basic, general, garden-variety caliber-war arguments in favor of .45 ACP.

.45 GAP simply fits .45 ACP performance into a slightly smaller package.

What it boils down to is that a sizable community of shooters believe that bigger bullets work better, that they're worth the capacity trade-off, and that .45 ACP is basically the gold standard against which all auto pistol calibers are judged. As to the merits of this argument, let's not bludgeon that deceased equine again.

5whiskey · March 20, 2018, 11:18 AM

Quote:

bludgeon that deceased equine again.

I laughed. Will definitely use that

JERRYS. · March 20, 2018, 11:19 AM

carguychris, much of what I say here is just me being facetious. I know very well why the change was made, I police in Georgia.....and GSP has gone to the 9 mm now as you prolly already know.

I ask some questions to obvious situations in hopes it might draw out something I haven't thought of before.... it didn't work here.

**44 AMP** · March 21, 2018, 10:10 AM

It matters not how often you bludgeon that deceased equine, it won't make a large rodent's posterior worth of difference.

I'm in the big bullet camp, if it were legal, I'd carry a .75 over a .45. I believe the British theory that big, heavy, slow bullets are good manstoppers, except I think they got the "slow" part wrong...

One thing I am not in favor of is jacking up the pressure of a round to get/keep performance so it can fit in a smaller gun. 9mm+p+ is scary, .40S&W is a grenade waiting to happen, and .45 GAP is, if not as bad, right up there.

I understand why they did it, I just don't agree with the direction taken.

Glenn E. Meyer · March 21, 2018, 11:36 AM

Interesting issue as I was reading a discussion of carry guns for states that have capacity bans. If you wanted more 'stopping power' (Heaven help me for saying that) and were limited to 10 rounds (or 7 in NYS - where you can have 10 round mags loaded to seven - idiocy), a Glock 38 (capacity 8, so load to seven) might hit the spot as compared to a comparable capacity 9 mm.

I can shoot 45 ACPs in a SW 1911Sc commander pretty well, but it's a big gun on my hip - so a Glock 38 might work as a touch more comfortable EDC. Ammo being the problem.

I know someone who shoots a 45 Gap in IDPA and does it quite well.

crazy charlie · March 21, 2018, 01:00 PM

The PA State Police had .45 Glock GAP. They switched to Sig-Sauer (I think model 220) in the plain Jane .45 ACP.

crazy charlie · March 21, 2018, 01:03 PM

I really think the .45 GAP is going to become an orphan.

SPEMack618 · March 23, 2018, 01:19 PM

So, to go along with the thread, we had a XD come in the shop in .45 GAP today. Didn't know they ever made one of those.

HighValleyRanch · March 23, 2018, 01:40 PM

so why doesn't the .40 fit that category of mimicing the .45 acp ballistics in a smaller package?
Out of my Kahr K40, WW JHP 180 grain at 1101 fps = 485 ft.pounds ME.
.45 acp 185 grain critical defense at 900 fps= 333 ft pounds ME (from Lucky Gunner site)

carguychris · March 23, 2018, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

So, to go along with the thread, we had a XD come in the shop in .45 GAP today. Didn't know they ever made one of those.

Wow! They're real needles in the haystack.

IIRC from another .45 GAP thread, the XD is rumored to be the only non-Glock .45 GAP pistol to actually reach series production. Spf'ld also advertised the "Defender" compact 1911 in .45 GAP, and even circulated samples to gun rags for testing, but the corresponding rumor says that full-scale "GAP Defender" production was canceled and that only the few pre-production samples exist.

Of course, I could be wrong. So, does anyone on TFL have a .45 GAP pistol that's not an XD, G37/38/39, or a custom job?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

so why doesn't the .40 fit that category of mimicing the .45 acp ballistics in a smaller package?

It uses smaller and lighter bullets at higher velocities.

The .40 was designed to split the difference between 9mm and .45 ACP, rather than to duplicate one or the other.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 23, 2018, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

so why doesn't the .40 fit that category of mimicing the .45 acp ballistics in a smaller package?

Because it's a .40, not a .45.

March 17, 2018, 08:47 PM	#27
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	There's one other factor you don't hear mentioned much, and that involves duty gear. Originally, the guns chambered for the new loading were to have the exact same dimensions as their 9mm counterparts, not just in the frame but in the slide as well. Glock made it a selling point that the new guns would fit the same holsters and magazine pouches. So, the sales pitch was this: you don't have to invest in new holsters (which are expensive on an individual basis and ludicrous on an agency scale) and you could trade the old Glocks in at a 1/1 ratio. It's good that cooler heads prevailed, because there was a a problem. The test ammo around which Glock developed the gun ran at different pressure than the commercial loads. The result? Big cycling problems with factory ammo. The solution? Well...um. Oh. More mass had to be added to the slide, which made it slightly wider than originally promise. As such, the promise of using the gun with existing duty gear pretty much evaporated. Condolences to my friends with GSP. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

March 18, 2018, 11:42 AM	#34
Walt Sherrill Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA Posts: 6,348	While .45 GAP isn't my round of choice, I did pick up a Glock 37 and 38 at fire-sale prices last year. (One unfired, and one a police trade-in, but both looked like new.) They're both very soft-shooting .45s (.45 GAP, I know, I know) -- and I shoot them better than most of the .45s I've owned. I found a conversion barrel for the 37, which allows me to shoot the 37 with only a barrel and ejector change -- and I suspect it might work with the stock ejector when shooting .40, or vice versa. I put an Apex Tactical trigger system into the Glock 37, and it's a nice shooting gun. My son and I were out shooting recently (he's a State Trooper and enjoys using his AR), and I was hitting metal targets at 40 and 50 yards (in .40 S&W) with relative ease. (I don't typically try hitting targets at that distance, and with some of the .40s I've owned, I often have a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn. The Glock .45 GAP guns are clearly not meant to satisfy everybody's tastes, but then, neither are many .45 ACP. guns. (I couldn't stand the original Glock .45 -- I felt like I was holding a 2x4! With regard to bullet size/caliber: I agree with most of the folks here that wound channel size (i.e., caliber) is NOT as important as PENETRATION DEPTH. In a self defense situation, you need to STOP the other party quickly -- which comes from central nervous system hits (and good shot placement). If you think the party bleeding out is a factor, consider the fact that while he or she is bleeding out, that person is still able to STOP YOU. If you can shoot a larger caliber as well as you shoot other calibers, that's a plus. I'll continue to carry a 9mm weapon, when I carry, but I will keep a .45 GAP gun in the bedside table at night. (When I get up, it goes back into a small, screwed-down gun safe in the bedroom closet.) Last edited by Walt Sherrill; March 19, 2018 at 10:36 AM.

March 21, 2018, 10:10 AM	#43
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,850	It matters not how often you bludgeon that deceased equine, it won't make a large rodent's posterior worth of difference. I'm in the big bullet camp, if it were legal, I'd carry a .75 over a .45. I believe the British theory that big, heavy, slow bullets are good manstoppers, except I think they got the "slow" part wrong... One thing I am not in favor of is jacking up the pressure of a round to get/keep performance so it can fit in a smaller gun. 9mm+p+ is scary, .40S&W is a grenade waiting to happen, and .45 GAP is, if not as bad, right up there. I understand why they did it, I just don't agree with the direction taken. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 21, 2018, 11:36 AM	#44
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Interesting issue as I was reading a discussion of carry guns for states that have capacity bans. If you wanted more 'stopping power' (Heaven help me for saying that) and were limited to 10 rounds (or 7 in NYS - where you can have 10 round mags loaded to seven - idiocy), a Glock 38 (capacity 8, so load to seven) might hit the spot as compared to a comparable capacity 9 mm. I can shoot 45 ACPs in a SW 1911Sc commander pretty well, but it's a big gun on my hip - so a Glock 38 might work as a touch more comfortable EDC. Ammo being the problem. I know someone who shoots a 45 Gap in IDPA and does it quite well. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 23, 2018, 01:19 PM	#47
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	So, to go along with the thread, we had a XD come in the shop in .45 GAP today. Didn't know they ever made one of those. __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"

March 17, 2018, 10:28 PM	#29
Ruger45LC Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 768	I had a G38 once, it was a good shooter but the .45 GAP could have been done differently and I think it would have had a better chance of overall success. One, they should have kept the thin 9mm/.40 slide instead of putting the fat .45/10mm thickness slides on them, it killed holster commonality. Two, anyone should know that power sells and quite frankly coming out with something that mimics a std. pressure .45 ACP but requires a different cartridge is not a winning combination. Had they treated it like a mini .45 Super/460 Rowland and made it a 35-40K PSI round like the .40 and 357 SIG, it could have beat even 45 ACP +P ballistics in a smaller framed gun. That I feel, would have have sold like hot cakes. Three, the name sucks. GAP doesn't sound good, but they didn't need another ".45". Simply call it the .450 something-or-another. That's it....thinner slide, more power and a better name.

March 20, 2018, 10:40 AM	#37
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	I think a good question is what does the 45 gap do that the 40 s&w didn't do already? the 40 s&w was suppose to be the answer to the more power than a 9 mm and more capacity than a 45 acp. (yes I know the 40 came about because people couldn't handle the 10 mm....)

March 20, 2018, 10:55 AM	#39
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	carguychris, the two things you mentioned are virtually identical in ballistic gel and real world shootings involving the best from each caliber. so what's the advantage, why switch?

March 20, 2018, 11:19 AM	#42
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	carguychris, much of what I say here is just me being facetious. I know very well why the change was made, I police in Georgia.....and GSP has gone to the 9 mm now as you prolly already know. I ask some questions to obvious situations in hopes it might draw out something I haven't thought of before.... it didn't work here.

March 21, 2018, 01:00 PM	#45
crazy charlie Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: PA Posts: 229	The PA State Police had .45 Glock GAP. They switched to Sig-Sauer (I think model 220) in the plain Jane .45 ACP.

March 21, 2018, 01:03 PM	#46
crazy charlie Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: PA Posts: 229	I really think the .45 GAP is going to become an orphan.

March 23, 2018, 01:40 PM	#48
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	so why doesn't the .40 fit that category of mimicing the .45 acp ballistics in a smaller package? Out of my Kahr K40, WW JHP 180 grain at 1101 fps = 485 ft.pounds ME. .45 acp 185 grain critical defense at 900 fps= 333 ft pounds ME (from Lucky Gunner site) __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail" Last edited by HighValleyRanch; March 23, 2018 at 01:48 PM.