Need help with Missouri bullet reload for 357

[buzz58]

I just bought a new Henry big boy model X in 357.
I’d like some help, or advice on my bullet and powder I have on hand.

Bullet is from Missouri Bullet Company
.357 Action -GL Hi-Tex Coated
.358 Dia 158 gr SWC
Brinell 18

Powder I have to work with is
Hodgdon H110
or
Hodgdon CFEpistol

The CFEpistol I’ve found data starting 5.5 / Max 6.3 for a 158 cast bullet.

But haven’t found anything for the H110 for cast bullet.

Any help would be appreciated.

[rclark]

Check for W296. Same as H110. That's a pretty hard bullet so, it should be able to handle the pressure. I personally don't use H110/W296 so can't help you there.


I found 6.5g CFEPistol under 158g SWC to be a good load. Chronographed at 1097fps out of my test revolver with 6 1/2" barrel. ES of 34fps over 15 shots.

[littlebikerider]

I'm in the same boat, recently purchased a .357 lever action that I will start reloading for, and have the same bullets.
Missouri Bullet has an excellent article on their website about figuring the optimal load for the bullet's BHN hardness. I think I figured that for BHN18, we were looking for a load with a pressure around 24000psi. According to data on the Hodgdon website, that pressure would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-6.3gr of CFE Pistol.
Note - I haven't gotten to try this yet, just sharing where I am in the journey.

[buzz58]

I did load up 8 rds each of Hornady 160 gr FMJ. these were bullets I’ve had since 1980.

Cfe 6.0 gr
Cfe 6.3 gr
cfe 6.6 gr

I shot 6 each through the Henry, and two each though my 8” Dan Wesson 1979/80 vintage. They all shot well, no pressure signs. I wasn’t shooting for accuracy.
Hodgdon site said 6.9 gr max for a 158 gr jacket bullet.

They seemed pretty light shooting. Even in the revolver.

I was hoping to kick up the punch with the H110 powder.

In Lyman 50th hand book, they list under 357 rifle data, 155 gr (#2 alloy), but show no H110 data. But under 357 pistol data they show the 155 gr (Linotype) with 15-15.7 of the H110 @ 1363 fps
Pistol data also has listed 160 gr (linotype) H110 15.8 - 16.5 @ 1463 fps.

Not sure what (Linotype) cast bullet is. So I’m unsure if the Missouri bullet would fall in that category.

By the way my 1980 bullets Hornady 160 Fmj, had a price tag of $7.27 on the box. Also a box of 1000 Winchester small postal magnums, $8.25. Oh the good olé days. The primers still fire of just fine.

Still looking help and opinions. Thanks

[RaySendero]

The FAQs from the Missouri Bullet Company:

https://missouribullet.com/faq.php

It's a good read. Was worth my time.

[David R]

Linotype is what printers used to use to make typeset. It fills out excellent when pouring bullets. Its harder than your BHN 18, but use the load data.

David

[Unclenick]

Based on the tables the late Richard Lee produced on pressure v. BHN and which include a 10% safety margin for shot-to-shot pressure variation, you simply multiply BHN time 1280 psi/BHN to get the practical pressure limit:

BHN 18 × 1280 psi/BHN = 23,004 psi (the BHN units cancel, leaving psi).

"Linotype" seems to vary by maker, but the pure original formula should be about BHN 27. Nonetheless, some material calling itself Lintotype has been reported to be lower.

BHN 27 × 1280 psi/BHN = 34,560 psi

As far as H110/296 goes, the reason you are not finding lead data is the load manual authors tend to lump all lead bullets together, from soft swaged to hard cast. Because H110/296 requires about 90% case fill to function without risking squibbing out and leaving a bullet stuck in the barrel that can cause the next shot to burst the gun, there often are no safe loads of it within pressures the softer lead or even the common BHN hardcast numbers can handle without distortion or causing excessive lead fouling. But Linotype is a good choice to limit leading at maximum pressure. For the Hodgdon's starting load of 15 grains, which runs about 70% of the pressure their maximum load produces (it is in CUP, but as a ratio of the MAP in CUP to the MAP in psi, it would be about 24,500 psi) so figure BHN 19 is ideal, and 18 will probably be close enough.

[buzz58]

Read on a post that Speer manual #14 says:
.357 158 gr cast H110 15gr @ 1648 fps.
So the post above from unclenick, is right in line with the 15 gr of H110.

I don’t need any squibbing!!

Time to write some loads on paper and head to the bench. With fingers crossed

[Reloader270]

I had good accuracy and velocity from Lil Gun powder in my .357Mag Marlin rifle. Run a little hot compared to other brands of powder, but who shoot more than 5 bullet when hunting? Pressure is very low.

[Dufus]

Alliant 2400 is better suited for cast bullets than either H110 or WW296.

[buzz58]

So I loaded 10 rounds of each and shot. 7 through the rifle, and 3 through the revolver.

Missouri bullet 158gr SWC Hi-Tex coating

6.3gr CFE
6.6gr CFE
15gr. H110

They all seemed to shoot well, with no signs of over pressure. I could definitely feel a difference in the H110 powder being a magnum load, compared to the CFE powder. The gun barrels all looked clean, and free of any lead.

How many rounds shot does it take for leading in the barrel would accrue? If any with the coated bullet.

About the H110 powder. Is there a way I can tell if this lead bullet is hard enough to handle the pressure? I know Unclenick explains about it above.

[David R]

If your barrel does not foul, you are good to go.

David

[LE-28]

If you have some way to catch a bullet, like shooting it into water, look at the front of the rifling marks on the bullet, and look at the back.
Measure the distance between them.
If the front rifling groove is wider than the back of the same groove then the bullet is trying to skid in the riflings because the lead is to soft to hold it's form at that pressure.

When this happens you can say the lead is to soft for the velocity your shooting them at.

That's the only way I have of checking them.

[buzz58]

How many feet of water dose it take to stop a 357?

[buzz58]

I was using magnum primers with both CFE and H110

After reading though other post I believe that a magnum primer is not needed for the CFE powder. What’s your response to that?

[David R]

minimal difference.

David

[Unclenick]

If you have a chronograph, see which primer produces the smallest velocity standard deviation. That's often a good indicator of how reliable and consistent the powder ignition is.

[T. O'Heir]

H110 doesn't need magnum primers. Hodgdon does show magnum primers for magnum named cartridges with it and CFE, for no apparent reason. They do not for non-magnum named cartridges using CFE or H110.
Hodgdon doesn't show H110 for a cast bullet for .357 Mag rifle or handgun loads either. They also tested handgun loads with a 10" barrel. I suspect to make the velocities higher.

[Unclenick]

The original reason for magnum primers with the powder is that in 1989 CCI changed their magnum primer mix formulation to get hotter sparks to better burn through and ignite the high deterrent coating concentrations at the surfaces of the St. Marks spherical propellant grains. Since then, most primer makers have changed their formulations to throw hotter sparks, even in standard primers, so the difference is no longer what it was thirty-two years ago. Nonetheless, there remains a difference between adequate ignition and optimal ignition, and checking your velocity SDs or the size of your groups are the only ways I know to tell whether you are doing better with a magnum primer or not. If not, don't waste money on them, obviously.

As far as Hodgdon goes, they use just one primer and one V&P test barrel for all their loads for a particular bullet and cartridge, regardless of the powder choice. So you can't tell whether a magnum primer might have done better for them with one of their powders or not. As far as the barrel length, there are two SAAMI barrel sizes for .357 Magnum: 4" with vent to simulate a revolver barrel/cylinder gap, and a 10" closed breech barrel to simulate single-shot pistols. Hodgdon chose the latter. I don't think it is likely to be to exaggerate velocity, as anyone looking at the numbers will notice the barrel length. I think it is because there are two different "universal" receivers, one of which is for the vented barrels that simulate revolver firing, while the other handles all other test barrels, including the long single-shot pistol barrels. Not chosing the vented barrel saves Hodgdon having to buy the separate receiver. See pages 134, 135 and 138 of the SAAMI standard.

[buzz58]

Question about the expansion die.
I reloaded 357 many years ago 20ish.
But never remember noticing that the die expands the case mouth around 1/4” into the casing before it flares the casing.

Is that what it’s doing? Or do I have it set right/or wrong?

As I was adjusting it to get the flare to be able Set bullet into casing, it seemed like a lot of pressure to just flare it a little. Pressure on the handle, in both up and down stroke. Normal?

[David R]

You need enough flare to get the bullet to start and seat with out shaving lead or coating.
David

[buzz58]

Yes, but I’m questioning, that’s it’s expanding also well before it flares?

[Unclenick]

It depends on the die set. Usually you have a straight portion ahead of the flare, though the Lee Universal Expander is just a flare, as it is not caliber-specific so they wouldn't know what size straight flare to use in your application.

Very hard flaring pressure is odd. Be aware that the mouths of the expander and seating dies do not touch the shell holder on the upstroke as a sizing die does. You either leave a gap and adjust the expander position inside the die body via a threaded adjustment at the top until you have the right flare or, if the expander position inside the die is fixed, you adjust the whole die to just barely expand the case mouth. Same with the seating die. You leave a gap at the upstroke position and use the adjustment inside the die body. Keep in mind you are only trying to prevent shaving of the bullet.

How far water will be penetrated is a surprisingly complicated question to answer. It will vary with bullet sectional density, which depends on bullet weight and, in turn, becomes smaller as a bullet expands, increasing its frontal area, so penetration will be inversely proportional to expansion. The expansion, in turn, requires a certain velocity to happen at all and velocity affects how much it expands. You can expect some bullets fired just below their expansion velocity will penetrate further than at a slightly higher velocity that starts to expand them. Bullets that have an expansion threshold above which they expand rapidly and fully will do that. Bullets that take more effort to expand, like soft points, may not. Additionally, different bullet designs have different expansion initiating velocities. For some bullets, above a still higher velocity threshold, will fold back over the bullet, slightly reducing the maximum expanded area and thereby increasing sectional density again a little over the fully expanded value, so penetration can increase again. So you can have a penetration curve for which penetration increases with velocity to the expansion threshold then drops and then starts to climb again, and then makes a more sudden climb as the petals fold back, and then goes back to a less rapid penetration increase with still more velocity. And I haven't gone into the fact the resistance will be roughly proportional to the square of the velocity and the effects of cavitation, which I have not studied the math for.

Here's a YouTube video where a .38 Special and a .357 both penetrate the same distance through water because of the complexities of early energy depletion and the difference in the bullet shape. Looking at other YouTube water penetration videos will be about as useful. Your best bet is to try it yourself for your load.

[buzz58]

Mine are old Lyman dies from the 70’s. I took them apart and there is a pre bullet expander before the flare. I’ve been reloading brand new brass. But I did you reload a couple dozen of them once firied brass and the expanding step was a lot easier pull on the press handle. I think the dirty brass added little lube to it, with less restriction.

So I went to my parents place, in pole building, where I store my prized possessions for many years. I went looking for my old reloading stuff. Found reloading manuals, bullet puller hammer, small funnel, etc.
But the main reason was I knew I had pounds of bullseye powder there. Now this keg of bullseye was purchased in 1979!!
Now this is a cardboard container, with steal bottom and top, with a pull out plastic pour spout.
I brought it home.
Opened the cap and smelled it. Not much smell. So I began to shake it up and mix it well.
Opened and I could smell powder! I poured my be 1/4 pound or so onto a paper plate to look at it
It look like Bullseye.
So I loaded 4.8 grains on top of a 158 grain Missouri bullet, in a 357 brass. Step out of my garage and fired.
To my amazement I got a Big Bang!!
So that 41 year old powder. Stored and forgotten In a in uninsulated pole building in Minnesota. The powder was stored anywhere from 90° Plus summer temperatures to -35° winter temp.
So I had to load up 12 more rounds of 5.4 grains. That old ████ still has a kick to it!!