German 1871 / 84 rifle. 11 mm. Spandau arsenal

[Hun Helmet]

This is a how did I do post?

Been looking at this for years. For years it was in the local gun store and seller wanted 1100.00 dollars and for years I thought that was a little high for the condition. As to condition it's got a lot of character and I like it.

I guess the seller got tired of waiting for someone to come along and pay that price. It was on consignment. Recently it went to gun broker so I saved it to keep an eye on it thinking it might well sell being exposed to a national market place. But no. So the store started to lower the price and I finally bid and won. NO one else wanted to bid on it. I don't think they could have lowered it anymore and not have a situation where bidders were gonna fight over it. I feel lucky no one saw it who wanted to bid but maybe I am wrong.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/965256163

[44caliberkid]

What is the bore like? Maybe a tad high for condition. I bought two at a live auction in about 1995, very good condition, paid about $300 each, but surplus stuff was still cheaper back then. I bought a proper bayonet for one of them a few years later and it was as much as the gun. At some point I bought brass, bullet mold, and dies. Just got around to casting some bullets for it this winter, need to hunt through my stuff for the brass. I’ll load them with black powder. I watched two YouTube videos about these that were completely opposite. In the first one they used smokeless loads, two different guys shot it, at steel plate, from a bench, and only hit the plate once out of about 12 shots. Left me thinking it might be a pointless project. But in the second video, a guy dressed like a cowboy shooter, shooting standing, unsupported, is just binging plates one after another, at various ranges. So when I get my loads done, I’ll shoot them in both guns and if one does significantly better than the other, I’ll keep that one and sell the other. Surplus is bringing more money lately. In 2022 I sold 90% of my surplus collection, brought good money but considering inflation since the 1980’s, I probably just got my money back.

[ernie8]

As long as the elevator and tube feed works , you did ok in today market . With the right bullet and load and good bore the rifle should be good for a real 3-5 inch 5-shot group at 100 yards .

[Hun Helmet]

Bore in fine condition, I don't plan to fire it. Still working on getting my needle gun to fire, Making some bullets this week.

[Mike Irwin]

Bit on the rough side, but from what I've seen, and if it has a good bore, I think you did well.

I've not seen one of those for sale in quite a few years. Always thought it would be a hoot to have either a 71 or a 71/84, but that would require reloading with black powder, and I never really wanted to try that.

[Hun Helmet]

I don't recall any import marks and I got a hunch it was brought back from WWII by a soldier who got it from a Volksturm trooper. That would explain all the "character" it exhibits.

[Jim Watson]

Jeff Cooper wrote of a siege by tribesmen in one of the German colonies in Africa.
The regulars were armed with Gew 88s, the farmer militia with 71/84s.

Was the 71 or 71/84 the main arm in any major conflict?

[ernie8]

They were used in many colonial conflicts , but nothing major . All of my best loads in the 71/84's are with smokeless powder , so that is not a reason to avoid them . I have a M-71 short rifle with an antique scope on it that I have taken game with . It's best load is a 300 grain .45 Colt bullet with smokeless at 1700 fps .

[Mike Irwin]

I've always been leery of using smokeless powders in firearms of this age, primarily from a flame temperature/bore erosion standpoint.

[4V50 Gary]

I don't recall any import marks and I got a hunch it was brought back from WWII by a soldier who got it from a Volksturm trooper. That would explain all the "character" it exhibits.

I've been looking but never found written confirmation/documentation that the 1871 or 1871/84 was issued to the Volksturm.

@ernie8 - did you scope it yourself or did you get the M-71 with a scope attached already? Pics if original?

[Scorch]

Was the 71 or 71/84 the main arm in any major conflict?

They were used in many colonial conflicts , but nothing major

The Mauser Infanterie Gewehr 71 was important because it was the first standardized rifle of the German Empire. The 71/84 was important in being a repeater version of the 71.

During the Boxer Rebellion in China, the Yihetuan Chinese used 1871s and 71/84s in fighting against the International Legation (which included the Germans who sold the weapons to them ).

In Japan, the troops of the Meiji government used 1871s in suppressing the uprising of samurai classes (famous because of Tom Cruise's participation).

[Mike Irwin]

I thought the Japanese used primarily French Chassepot rifles prior to adoption of the Murata in 1880.

[jaguarxk120]

The 11MM Mauser (43 Mauser) standard charge was 77 grains Fg blackpowder.
A wax wad was seated over the powder and a swaged paper patched bullet seated.

The classic smokeless powder used was IMR 4759 (no longer made), I forget the charge.
But a very good shooting load (duplex) was 5 grains 4759 with 70-72 grains Fg on top.
This duplex load will shoot very clean.

Dominion Cartridge of Cannada at one time loaded the 11MM Mauser since many of
these rifles are/were in use there.

[4V50 Gary]

In WW I, von Lettow Vorbeck's Askaris used them (1871 and not 1871/84 repeaters) in one battle against the British led Indian Army. Afterward they reequipped themselves with captured SMLEs. Repeaters with high velocity bullets!

I'd like to know if their (1871 or even 1871/84) use extended to the Volksturm in WW2.

[Mike Irwin]

"Dominion Cartridge of Cannada at one time loaded the 11MM Mauser since many of
these rifles are/were in use there."

Most American ammo manufacturers, including Remington/UMC, Winchester, etc., loaded 11mm Mauser (as well as other European black powder cartridges) during the last decades of the 19th and first decades of the 20th century because those cartridges saw a surprising amount of use here in the United States.

The biggest entrant for rifles in European chamberings was Bannerman's. That company would buy surplus rifles and ammo and sell them for a pittance, either domestically or to smaller nations looking to outfit a military or police force on the cheap.

Shooters could buy a very serviceable Mauser or Remington Rolling Block and cartridges for a fraction of the price that a Winchester or Savage lever action would set them back.

[Hun Helmet]

The Germans issued whatever they had to the volkstrum. Since they had some in storage they surely issued them out.

https://www.historicalfirearms.info/...-by-early-1945

[Hun Helmet]

Also cited in Mark Felton's video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WWs5AxGRVY

Also took a look at the bore here at home and I have never seen a more shinny barrel.

[44 AMP]

Another possibility is that it was not issued or used by the Volksturm, but simply an old gun shoved into some GI's arms by a nervous Hausfrau during the immediate post war occupation.

Lots of obsolete military arms, and lots of sporting guns were turned over to GIs in order to comply with the surrender condition of turning in arms.

[Scorch]

There are pictures I have seen on the internet of German soldiers in WW I standing guard with 1871s and 71/84s, can't remember if there were captions saying where they were standing guard. I have also seen WW2 era photos of German soldiers on guard in occupied France with MAS36s and Berthiers captured from the French. So it's pretty clear the Germans used whatever they had for reserve troops.

The 11MM Mauser (43 Mauser) standard charge was 77 grains Fg blackpowder.

I have a IG1871 that I load with 68 gr of FFg (lightly compressed) and a 320 gr .439" lead bullet. Probably the difference between drawn brass and balloon head brass.

[Mike Irwin]

'The Germans issued whatever they had to the volkstrum. Since they had some in storage they surely issued them out."

Yep. US troops frequently encountered volkstrum troops armed with 11 Mauser revolvers.

" I have also seen WW2 era photos of German soldiers on guard in occupied France with MAS36s and Berthiers captured from the French. So it's pretty clear the Germans used whatever they had for reserve troops."

It was not at all uncommon for German troops stationed in occupied countries to be armed with the weapons of the occupied nation, especially if that nation had an an arms infrastructure that would support that.

France had a very robust arms infrastructure that was captured largely undamaged, so German troops in France were armed with weapons ranging from the Mle 1892 revolver to the Mle 1924/29 light machine gun.

The artillery pieces that the US Rangers were tasked with taking out at Pointe du Hoc on June 4, 1944?

They were French Canon de 155 Grande Puissance Filloux (GPF) modèle 1917.

[44 AMP]

Except when it comes to choosing 20th century political leadership, and a few other things, the Germans are usually a very practical people.

Captured equipment that worked, was used at lot, both in rear areas and in ground combat. In some cases there were entire units formed and equipped with captured equipment, or even German modified captured equipment.

Quite a bit of the SP guns GIs faced in France were German conversions of French tank hulls. IF they captured enough to make it worth while, Germany manufactured ammunition and made training manuals for foreign equipment in German service.

French small arms got used in France, because they (and their ammo) was there. Secondary / support troops got them, so that they were armed, without costing anything, including transport costs.

Volksturm units were raised in the last years of the war, and got issued whatever there was left to issue. Kind of the the opposite of the British Home Guard in 1940.

The British formed the units and they trained with pitchforks, shovels and brooms waiting for production /foreign aid to replace them with actual arms, the Volksturm was on the other end of the scale, being armed as well as Germany could manage at the beginning, and going down to what ever was left by the end.

If you want "proof" Germany used foreign arms, just watch Hogan's Heroes. Sgt Schultz had a KRAG rifle!