I made a mistake. Ruger 45 Flattop

KansasTrapper77 · February 8, 2022, 09:30 PM

So I stumbled upon a Ruger New Model Blackhawk in .45 cal with the factory conversion cylinder for a price I liked. So I spoke with the significant other and snagged it up before closing time. While looking the gun over before purchasing it I noted it was a Flattop model which I thought was merely a cosmetic detail that could increase value depending on the buyers flavor, and not a frame and cylinder difference. I messed up. I was under the impression any Ruger New Model Blackhawk 45 Colt was suitable for "Ruger Only Loads". So I am here to admit my ignorance about the medium frame 45 cal Rugers. I'm a Ruger fan but turns out I didn't know as much as I thought I did. I'm not going to turn around sell it but It might get traded in later for something.

Real Gun · February 8, 2022, 09:57 PM

My 41 Magnum is Flat Top in the large frame, and your 45 is too, no doubt. I had a 44 Magnum Flat Top and it was large frame. We should not assume a Flat Top is a medium frame.

KansasTrapper77 · February 8, 2022, 10:00 PM

Sweet! How do I verify this? I don't want to load max "Ruger Only Loads" just a 300gr around 1200 fps

**44 AMP** · February 8, 2022, 11:22 PM

Quote:

I don't want to load max "Ruger Only Loads" just a 300gr around 1200 fps

got news for you, a 300gr slug at 1200fps IS a Ruger Only load and a max one, at that.

Also understand a couple of things, first, Ruger NEVER has approved the use of "ruger only" loads. Ever.

Second, understand that the term "ruger only" comes from the early 70s, when there was ONLY ONE RUGER in .45 Colt, The new model Blackhawk. There are no "Ruger only" loads in any other caliber, and "Ruger only" is not any official designation by any gun or ammo maker.

Have you ever shot any 300gr .45 slugs at 1200fps?? I have, and they're fun, in a .45-70!! in anything smaller, not so much....

Suggest you compare a New Model Blackhawk .45 with your Flattop .45 side by side and see if there is a difference in size.

I have New Model Blackhawks in ,45 Colt, and I have Vaqueros in .45 Colt. I had a New Vaquero in .45 Colt and it was a smaller frame gun. Your Flattop MIGHT BE as well. I don't know. Comparing the guns side by side (at your dealers shop) will show you if there is an obvious size difference (your dealer should have some new model Blackhawk available to show you, right?)

I had my years of turning my .45 Colt into a .44 mag (+ ) power levels. Got done with that about 30 some years ago. I shoot 250gr and while I run a bit hotter than black powder ammo, my loads run almost 1100fps from my 7.5" guns. Pleasant to shoot and plenty powerful for what I do. Accurate enough for me to ring the 200yd rifle gong, and shoot all afternoon, too.''

You want to shoot a 300gr at 1200fps? If you've got the gun for it, by all means, have fun. I'm done with that, in .45 Colt guns, anyway.

KansasTrapper77 · February 8, 2022, 11:28 PM

I was flipping through my Hornady Reloading manual and they were pushing these things 300gr 1300+ but you’re right thats up there. I guess id just like to see a velocity increase over the 45 ACP. Because i know it can push 230gr 800 FPS all day.

stinkeypete · February 8, 2022, 11:52 PM

(deleted)

stinkeypete · February 9, 2022, 12:08 AM

a "flat top" is an older collectable Blackhawk (1955-1962) and it's more than having a "flat top".

It's my understanding that a "New Model Blackhawk" is a large frame single action with a fluted cylinder and a "New Model Super Blackhawk" is a large frame single action with an unfluted cylinder.

To be honest, it's confusing and I don't really care because I know what MY Blackhawk is. I also know that I got a .454 Casull to shoot handcannon level loads and would not advise anyone to be handloading to the level being discussed here. There is a reason the .44 Magnum is only offered in the Super Blackhawk.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 9, 2022, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KansasTrapper77

While looking the gun over before purchasing it I noted it was a Flattop model which I thought was merely a cosmetic detail that could increase value depending on the buyers flavor, and not a frame and cylinder difference. I messed up. I was under the impression any Ruger New Model Blackhawk 45 Colt was suitable for "Ruger Only Loads". So I am here to admit my ignorance about the medium frame 45 cal Rugers. I'm a Ruger fan but turns out I didn't know as much as I thought I did.

What's the length of the cylinder window in the frame?

What's the diameter of the cylinder (to the rounds, not at the flutes)?

**44 AMP** · February 9, 2022, 12:33 AM

Quote:

It's my understanding that a "New Model Blackhawk" is a large frame single action with a fluted cylinder and a "New Model Super Blackhawk" is a large frame single action with an unfluted cylinder.

Once upon a time, that was true, today, not necessarily.

Ruger actually made the Blackhawk in .44 Magnum. In fact, they actually got their gun on the market a few months before S&W got the model 29 to dealers.

When Ruger introduced the Super Blackhawk, both guns were produced side by side for several years, then the .44 Blackhawk was dropped and all the .44 Mags were Super Blackhawks from then on.

And for decades the Super Blackhawk only came in one flavor the 7.5" barrel. There was a 10" version offered for a while, don't know if its still made.

According to the stories, Bill Ruger got concerned about the durablility of the .44 Blackhawks (gun life, NOT strength) and created the Super. The Super is heavier and so a bit more pleasant to shoot as well.

The differences between a New Model Blackhawk and a New Model Super Blackhawk are that the Super had an unfluted cylinder, the ejector rod housing is steel, the grip frame is the "dragoon" style and is steel (and slightly longer), the trigger is grooved, and the hammer has a slightly different profile, the spur being lower and having a wider thumb pad.

For may years, that was the only way a Super Blachawk came.

TODAY Ruger will sell you a SUPER BLACKHAWK with a fluted cylinder and a regular (round) style grip frame as well as the older style.

SO, today, you can get a Super Blackhawk that is visually virtually identical to the Blackhawk. And both are made on the large (44 size) frame.

Ruger has also "re-introduced" a Flattop frame, I do not know if it is the same as the old, original ones or if it has a larger frame.

Crazy Carl · February 9, 2022, 02:51 AM

New Model .45 Colt flat top Blackhawks are medium frame guns, as are the .44 Special flat tops, while New Model .41 & .44 Magnums are large frames, flat top or no.

Again, ALL New Model flat top .45 Blackhawks are built on the medium frame.

rodfac · February 9, 2022, 07:25 AM

Quote:

a 300gr slug at 1200fps IS a Ruger Only load and a max one, at that.

Yep...I'll add...not suitable for medium frame Flat Top .45 Colt Rugers.

New Model .45 Colt flat top Blackhawks are medium frame guns, as are the .44 Special flat tops, while New Model .41 & .44 Magnums are large frames, flat top or no. Again, ALL New Model flat top .45 Blackhawks are built on the medium frame. Yep...best regards, Rod

KansasTrapper77 · February 9, 2022, 11:07 AM

I wasn’t planning on loading magnum 45 Colt loads every time. But I wanted the ability to load them occasionally. So it sounds like I need to get a good cast bullet going about 1000 FPS and see if that trips my fancy or not.

**44 AMP** · February 9, 2022, 01:26 PM

A 250gr bullet at 1,000fps is within the capability of a Colt SAA or clone,or any Ruger .45 Colt if you have enough barrel length. The shorter (4 5/8") guns sometimes won't quite break 1,000fps. Longer barrel guns often will, and without using "Ruger only" loads.

stinkeypete · February 9, 2022, 01:50 PM

44 Amp, Mr. Bowen cut my father’s 7.5” .44 Magnum Super Blackhawk back to 5.5”, put new sights on it, reamed the throats and worked magic on the trigger. 7.5 was all you could buy.

I used to prefer handloaded .45 Colt while my dad preferred .44 Magnum. “Think of the grand history of the .45 Colt!” I would say.

“Yes, but .44 Magnum is just a hot loaded .44-40 in my mind, so there is my grand history,” he would say.

The old man gave me that pistol when he got too frail to shoot it. I sold off my .45 LC Ruger single actions. The confusion about which frame size and which cylinder now makes it all too easy for a handloading disaster should one be loading the old hot loads.

Now I say “.44 magnum is just a hot .44-40” and I know my gun can handle hard hot factory loads. My handloading consists of backing that down to something that is far less punishing to shoot.

My dad died a few months ago. I miss him.

Real Gun · February 9, 2022, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Carl

New Model .45 Colt flat top Blackhawks are medium frame guns, as are the .44 Special flat tops, while New Model .41 & .44 Magnums are large frames, flat top or no.

Again, ALL New Model flat top .45 Blackhawks are built on the medium frame.

Which should mean 45 Colt New Model Blackhawks are NOT "Ruger-only" capable. Cylinders would be looking for SAAMI limit. Look to older Blackhawks, Super Blackhawks, discontinued 5.5" Redhawks, or current Super Redhawks for that.

KansasTrapper77 · February 9, 2022, 02:30 PM

@RealGun the frame differences really did trip me up. I could solve the problem by finding a Ruger in 454 Casull, because the recoil would overpower me before it did the gun. But those are hard to find and expensive. Then I’d have to find a spare cylinder to take to a smith to get milled for 45 ACP. I think I’ll like this gun. But we’ll see if it gets traded out for the larger frame sometime.

hub1home · February 9, 2022, 02:32 PM

Call Ruger and ask. Safety issues they will always talk to you.

stinkeypete · February 9, 2022, 03:02 PM

If you got a Ruger Super Blackhawk (5 shots… because cylinder strength) you can shoot .45 LC and hand load up to the old “Ruger Only” LC and never even wonder. And if you want to experience the huge boom, you can. Anything hotter than saami .45 LC you put in .454 Casull cases which use the same dies as .45 LC… just like .357 and .36 share dies. The brass is just a smidge longer to avoid putting hot loads in weak guns.

Or… look for an old large frame .45 Ruger but really… and old .44 and you never need wonder, or worry about your ammo finding it’s way into the wrong gun.

Really though.. .45 LC is still a very nice revolver. Every job doesn’t require a nuclear option.

KansasTrapper77 · February 9, 2022, 03:06 PM

For myself personally hot 45 Colt making its way into another gun wouldn’t be an issue as this is Currently the only 45 Colt i own. But I see your point.

ThomasT · February 10, 2022, 08:52 PM

Quote:

TODAY Ruger will sell you a SUPER BLACKHAWK with a fluted cylinder and a regular (round) style grip frame as well as the older style.

My Super Blackhawk is like that. 5.5" barrel with fluted cylinder and round trigger guard. A really nice hunting gun I paid $400 NIB about 15 years ago.

I never load Ruger Only loads. Whats the point? If a 240gr bullet going 1250fps won't kill it I am using the wrong gun. Dave Scoville of Rifle mag one time made the point that a 300gr bullet from a .45 Colt going 900fps will shoot length wise through the biggest deer that walks why do I need more power? I am sure the 240gr bullet from the 44 mag will work just as well as the 45 Colt.

greenmtnguy · February 10, 2022, 08:54 PM

Get more familiar with handloading and 45 colt. Pay particular attention to B Pearce's 3-tier load categories in back issues of Handloader Magazine. Tier 3 are the large frame, Ruger only category. Tier 1 is original Colt SAA and clones. Tier 2 is ok for modern Colts and the newer medium frame Blackhawks.

Tier 2 can get you1000-1100fps with 250-280gn bullets depending on load. I seldom have to load any hotter.

If you load the heavy 300s, you better have a tall front sight

**44 AMP** · February 10, 2022, 11:43 PM

For clarity, I need to point out that the term "Ruger Only" loads was applied ONLY to heavier than standard .45 Colt loads the large frame Blackhawk could handle. It was never applied to any other caliber or loads

And, at the time the phrase was created, there was only one Ruger SA in .45 Colt, the large frame Blackhawk / New Model Blackhawk.

Until fairly recently the Super Blackhawk was in .44 mag, only. In recent years, along with many options not previously offered, the Super is chambered in .454 Casull and .480 as well. I believe those calibers use 5 shot cylinders.

ThomasT · February 11, 2022, 04:37 PM

Quote:

For clarity, I need to point out that the term "Ruger Only" loads was applied ONLY to heavier than standard .45 Colt loads the large frame Blackhawk could handle. It was never applied to any other caliber or loads

Yes you are absolutely correct. There are no "Ruger Only" loads in the loading manuals for the 44 mag. But I have seen articles printed that listed loads that exceeded the book loads. For some reason some folks have decided that the people who write reloading manuals are afraid to publish real full power loads.

Not me. I rarely ever load the full power listed loads for any gun. And that was my point earlier. Cylinder expanding, barrel stretching loads are almost never needed. In my 44 mag I shoot way more 1000fps loads with lead bullets than 1200+fps loads with lead or jacketed bullets.

Thats what I was trying to say to the OP. You may get away with "Ruger Only" loads for a while but they will beat your gun up and they go through expensive brass quicker. Good thing he said he just wants to shoot those on occasion and not all the time.

GeauxTide · February 11, 2022, 04:56 PM

Quote:

New Model .45 Colt flat top Blackhawks are medium frame guns, as are the .44 Special flat tops, while New Model .41 & .44 Magnums are large frames, flat top or no.
Again, ALL New Model flat top .45 Blackhawks are built on the medium frame.

The 45 Convertible is a medium frame and a few ounces less than the full size Blackhawk. Both my 45s are large frame; however, your piece can easily digest 21,000psi loads. My load of 10gr Unique under a 285SWC is a 20,000 load and will blow through deer and hogs to 40 yards. Shoots under an inch at 25 yards, too. That's a lot of horsepower out of your 40oz. revolver.

KansasTrapper77 · February 11, 2022, 05:34 PM

For clarification I did not intend to feed my Ruger a steady diet of “Ruger Only” loads but load up a handful for sadistic amusement I guess. We call it recoil therapy. I do something similar with a Marlin guide gun in 45-70. Load a couple stout ones for amusement and the rest for hunting and long range target shooting out of a Uberti High Wall.

Now the challenge will be finding brass. If I’m unsuccessful for awhile I might buy some 454 or 460 brass which is semi available and cut it down. But that’d be expensive and the incorrect head stamp would rankle me. So I hope I can scrounge up some brass.

But here’s my question for the professionals. Is there any reason I can’t buy Hornady’s fancy pants 4 Die Titanium Nitride set for 454 Cas and use it for 45 Colt? It is more expensive than a 45 Colt set but not much after you consider buying a stand alone Lee Carbide crimp die. Now I understand that its a straight wall so sizing and such is no different but I’ve been reading it’s generally better to use dies from shorter cartridges to load longer ones because of the seat and crimp at the same time feature (I think). That wouldn’t be an issue with the 4 die set as it has a dedicated crimp die. And my back of the head thought is I’d really like to own a 454 Casull one day because I’m young and dumb and this die set would be a one and done type deal.

Thoughts from the more experienced?

February 8, 2022, 09:30 PM	#1
KansasTrapper77 Member Join Date: April 9, 2021 Posts: 31	I made a mistake. Ruger 45 Flattop So I stumbled upon a Ruger New Model Blackhawk in .45 cal with the factory conversion cylinder for a price I liked. So I spoke with the significant other and snagged it up before closing time. While looking the gun over before purchasing it I noted it was a Flattop model which I thought was merely a cosmetic detail that could increase value depending on the buyers flavor, and not a frame and cylinder difference. I messed up. I was under the impression any Ruger New Model Blackhawk 45 Colt was suitable for "Ruger Only Loads". So I am here to admit my ignorance about the medium frame 45 cal Rugers. I'm a Ruger fan but turns out I didn't know as much as I thought I did. I'm not going to turn around sell it but It might get traded in later for something.

February 8, 2022, 09:57 PM	#2
Real Gun Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: SC Posts: 2,743	My 41 Magnum is Flat Top in the large frame, and your 45 is too, no doubt. I had a 44 Magnum Flat Top and it was large frame. We should not assume a Flat Top is a medium frame. __________________ Not an expert, just a reporter.

February 8, 2022, 11:52 PM	#6
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	(deleted) __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

February 9, 2022, 12:08 AM	#7
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	a "flat top" is an older collectable Blackhawk (1955-1962) and it's more than having a "flat top". It's my understanding that a "New Model Blackhawk" is a large frame single action with a fluted cylinder and a "New Model Super Blackhawk" is a large frame single action with an unfluted cylinder. To be honest, it's confusing and I don't really care because I know what MY Blackhawk is. I also know that I got a .454 Casull to shoot handcannon level loads and would not advise anyone to be handloading to the level being discussed here. There is a reason the .44 Magnum is only offered in the Super Blackhawk. __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

February 9, 2022, 01:26 PM	#13
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,870	A 250gr bullet at 1,000fps is within the capability of a Colt SAA or clone,or any Ruger .45 Colt if you have enough barrel length. The shorter (4 5/8") guns sometimes won't quite break 1,000fps. Longer barrel guns often will, and without using "Ruger only" loads. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 8, 2022, 10:00 PM	#3
KansasTrapper77 Member Join Date: April 9, 2021 Posts: 31	Sweet! How do I verify this? I don't want to load max "Ruger Only Loads" just a 300gr around 1200 fps

February 8, 2022, 11:28 PM	#5
KansasTrapper77 Member Join Date: April 9, 2021 Posts: 31	I was flipping through my Hornady Reloading manual and they were pushing these things 300gr 1300+ but you’re right thats up there. I guess id just like to see a velocity increase over the 45 ACP. Because i know it can push 230gr 800 FPS all day.

February 9, 2022, 02:51 AM	#10
Crazy Carl Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Location: Alamance Co., NC Posts: 265	New Model .45 Colt flat top Blackhawks are medium frame guns, as are the .44 Special flat tops, while New Model .41 & .44 Magnums are large frames, flat top or no. Again, ALL New Model flat top .45 Blackhawks are built on the medium frame.

February 9, 2022, 11:07 AM	#12
KansasTrapper77 Member Join Date: April 9, 2021 Posts: 31	I wasn’t planning on loading magnum 45 Colt loads every time. But I wanted the ability to load them occasionally. So it sounds like I need to get a good cast bullet going about 1000 FPS and see if that trips my fancy or not.

February 9, 2022, 01:50 PM	#14
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	44 Amp, Mr. Bowen cut my father’s 7.5” .44 Magnum Super Blackhawk back to 5.5”, put new sights on it, reamed the throats and worked magic on the trigger. 7.5 was all you could buy. I used to prefer handloaded .45 Colt while my dad preferred .44 Magnum. “Think of the grand history of the .45 Colt!” I would say. “Yes, but .44 Magnum is just a hot loaded .44-40 in my mind, so there is my grand history,” he would say. The old man gave me that pistol when he got too frail to shoot it. I sold off my .45 LC Ruger single actions. The confusion about which frame size and which cylinder now makes it all too easy for a handloading disaster should one be loading the old hot loads. Now I say “.44 magnum is just a hot .44-40” and I know my gun can handle hard hot factory loads. My handloading consists of backing that down to something that is far less punishing to shoot. My dad died a few months ago. I miss him. __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

February 9, 2022, 02:30 PM	#16
KansasTrapper77 Member Join Date: April 9, 2021 Posts: 31	@RealGun the frame differences really did trip me up. I could solve the problem by finding a Ruger in 454 Casull, because the recoil would overpower me before it did the gun. But those are hard to find and expensive. Then I’d have to find a spare cylinder to take to a smith to get milled for 45 ACP. I think I’ll like this gun. But we’ll see if it gets traded out for the larger frame sometime.

February 9, 2022, 02:32 PM	#17
hub1home Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2014 Posts: 182	Call Ruger and ask. Safety issues they will always talk to you.

February 9, 2022, 03:02 PM	#18
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	If you got a Ruger Super Blackhawk (5 shots… because cylinder strength) you can shoot .45 LC and hand load up to the old “Ruger Only” LC and never even wonder. And if you want to experience the huge boom, you can. Anything hotter than saami .45 LC you put in .454 Casull cases which use the same dies as .45 LC… just like .357 and .36 share dies. The brass is just a smidge longer to avoid putting hot loads in weak guns. Or… look for an old large frame .45 Ruger but really… and old .44 and you never need wonder, or worry about your ammo finding it’s way into the wrong gun. Really though.. .45 LC is still a very nice revolver. Every job doesn’t require a nuclear option. __________________ My book "The Pheasant Hunter's Action Adventure Cookbook" is now on Amazon. Tall tales, hunting tips, butchering from bird to the freezer, and recipes.

February 9, 2022, 03:06 PM	#19
KansasTrapper77 Member Join Date: April 9, 2021 Posts: 31	For myself personally hot 45 Colt making its way into another gun wouldn’t be an issue as this is Currently the only 45 Colt i own. But I see your point.

February 10, 2022, 08:54 PM	#21
greenmtnguy Member Join Date: October 25, 2004 Posts: 37	Get more familiar with handloading and 45 colt. Pay particular attention to B Pearce's 3-tier load categories in back issues of Handloader Magazine. Tier 3 are the large frame, Ruger only category. Tier 1 is original Colt SAA and clones. Tier 2 is ok for modern Colts and the newer medium frame Blackhawks. Tier 2 can get you1000-1100fps with 250-280gn bullets depending on load. I seldom have to load any hotter. If you load the heavy 300s, you better have a tall front sight

February 10, 2022, 11:43 PM	#22
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,870	For clarity, I need to point out that the term "Ruger Only" loads was applied ONLY to heavier than standard .45 Colt loads the large frame Blackhawk could handle. It was never applied to any other caliber or loads And, at the time the phrase was created, there was only one Ruger SA in .45 Colt, the large frame Blackhawk / New Model Blackhawk. Until fairly recently the Super Blackhawk was in .44 mag, only. In recent years, along with many options not previously offered, the Super is chambered in .454 Casull and .480 as well. I believe those calibers use 5 shot cylinders. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 11, 2022, 05:34 PM	#25
KansasTrapper77 Member Join Date: April 9, 2021 Posts: 31	For clarification I did not intend to feed my Ruger a steady diet of “Ruger Only” loads but load up a handful for sadistic amusement I guess. We call it recoil therapy. I do something similar with a Marlin guide gun in 45-70. Load a couple stout ones for amusement and the rest for hunting and long range target shooting out of a Uberti High Wall. Now the challenge will be finding brass. If I’m unsuccessful for awhile I might buy some 454 or 460 brass which is semi available and cut it down. But that’d be expensive and the incorrect head stamp would rankle me. So I hope I can scrounge up some brass. But here’s my question for the professionals. Is there any reason I can’t buy Hornady’s fancy pants 4 Die Titanium Nitride set for 454 Cas and use it for 45 Colt? It is more expensive than a 45 Colt set but not much after you consider buying a stand alone Lee Carbide crimp die. Now I understand that its a straight wall so sizing and such is no different but I’ve been reading it’s generally better to use dies from shorter cartridges to load longer ones because of the seat and crimp at the same time feature (I think). That wouldn’t be an issue with the 4 die set as it has a dedicated crimp die. And my back of the head thought is I’d really like to own a 454 Casull one day because I’m young and dumb and this die set would be a one and done type deal. Thoughts from the more experienced?