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October 22, 2020, 05:03 PM | #76 | |
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And who gets the right to tell you what to carry? Ive carried in NPE's for most of my life, and stood in a couple of different police chiefs offices, in a pair of jeans and my comapany uniform shirt, wearing a full sized hand gun (1911, SIG P226, etc) I wasnt supposed to have on, and he never had a clue, nor did any of the other cops I interacted with headed to his office. Ive also had quite a few conversations with people, inlaws, people in gun shops, work, etc, face to face, a couple of feet apart, and was told I couldnt possibly carry a full sized gun wearing what I was wearing, while I was doing exactly that, and right in front of them. This isnt rocket science, nor is it hard to do. You just have to "want" to do it, and youll figure out a way. Dont listen to the nay sayers, or let those who think they are, and/or want to be in charge of you, tell you what to do. You do what you think is best for you, and let them find their own way. As I said earlier, personally, Ive always tried to carry the gun I shoot best with in regular practice, and allows me the best chance to deal with as many possible things that may come up. Why in the world would you limit yourself, needlessly, if you dont have to? Id be willing to bet, with a little work on your part, you can easily figure out how to hide and carry the gun you were told you couldnt possibly carry, and do so right in front of the person who told you that. And theres a LOT of satisfaction in doing just that too. Last edited by JohnKSa; October 22, 2020 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Language. |
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October 22, 2020, 05:04 PM | #77 | |
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Best pistol for childrens church security
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I totally get a lot of this is beyond your control. I’m just trying to figure out what parameters might be known so I can actually make a meaningful suggestion. Full grip is still pretty vague. Like, I can get a full grip on something like a Glock 19, but others have bigger hands that make that hard and for them they need a Glock 17 for a full grip. Full grips in single stacks aren’t particularly common unless we’re talking about Commander sized 1911s. That being said if it has to be a single stack and you want DA/SA I think the XDe, P239 (might not give you a full grip depending on your hand size), or some of the older S&W semiautomatics might work. It’s hard because DA/SA or true DAO aren’t as popular these days so there aren’t as many options with that manual of arms, but that’s what comes to mind. I would say, and this is me being biased, the HK P2000 or P2000sk are surprisingly svelte if you get a chance to look at one. I don’t have anything against the PX4 line, but it’s rather thick. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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October 22, 2020, 05:07 PM | #78 |
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That is getting you into deep concealment from your alleged allies.
Not knowing how you are wired, but I'd consider a shoulder holster under the shirt or one of those holster undershirts for a medium pistol. Ken Null will even make a white shoulder rig to reduce printing. Would a "tuckable" IWB do? Thunderware? If even deeper hiding is necessary, you are down to a pocket pistol in a pocket or ankle rig. |
October 22, 2020, 05:12 PM | #79 | |
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October 22, 2020, 05:14 PM | #80 | ||
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Just because it's unpaid doesn't mean that he doesn't have a boss and doesn't have to follow rules. The boss has told him how to operate and given him boundaries within which he must operate. As with any job, he could choose not to "work there" and then he wouldn't have to follow that boss' rules. Quote:
By the way, I usually try to avoid the "I can carry a bigger gun than you can because _______" arguments (fill in the blank with whatever--I'm smarter, I care less about printing, I'm more security conscious. ) For one thing, it would take getting everyone in the argument together in a room to really verify what different people mean by concealment, what different people mean by a normal range of activities, for people to see that not everyone is built the same way they are, for people to understand that not everyone is free to choose their mode of dress with the same leeway they are, that not everyone can manage the same level of discomfort that they feel is reasonable, etc., etc. That all said, it is worth noting that simply carrying is not really what this is about. It's about carrying in a specific environment and maintaining perfect concealment throughout the entire process. If you've ever had a kid run up to you to hug you and smack their head on your carry gun, you will know why the kind of people you are carrying around can make a difference. If you've ever had someone put an arm around you and feel your carry gun, you'll understand. If you've ever tried to figure out what to do with a gun while using the restroom because it's too heavy/large to leave on your belt during the process, you'll understand why someone who can go lock themselves into a room by themselves every time they need to go to the bathroom has more concealment leeway than someone who has to use a public restroom sometimes. If you've ever had a gun unconceal when reaching up for something or bending over and sitting and you can't wear a cover garment long enough to qualify as a short dress, then it might make sense why someone who can't just stand still or walk around without bending/reaching/sitting is more restricted in terms of what they can conceal and/or how hard they must work to conceal. If you can't wear loose/baggy/casual clothing, you will probably understand why those who have a lot of leeway in that area can conceal more easily and can conceal larger firearms. Finally, I think by now we all know that some people are just plain superheroes when it comes to concealing. They can always conceal a full-sized, full-weight pistol and several magazines for it regardless of what manner of dress they are restricted to, no matter who they are around, no matter what kind of activity they have to do, etc. I think we also know that in practice, most non-superhero concealers find that they are sometimes forced to tailor their carry gun to the situation.
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October 22, 2020, 05:17 PM | #81 | |
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Yeah the reason I hesitated on it is because it’s actually a double stack. It’s skinny for a double stack, but it’s outside of the actual recommendations so that’s why I held off on fully endorsing it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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October 22, 2020, 05:32 PM | #82 |
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Best pistol for childrens church security
I consider the right to self defense a fundamental right. At the same time, I also think people and organizations have rights to set limitations on what is private property. If I don’t agree with those limitations I generally don’t patronize the establishment. In this case it seems like the OP cares about the people in this church, wants to help protect them, and doesn’t want to disrespect the wishes of church leadership and one of those wishes that has been conveyed to him directly, if maybe not clearly, is size limitations.
I’m not going to suggest the OP just disregard what you’ve been told. I think that could have a negative impact in the end. I might suggest trying to convince the church to relax those restrictions over time as the program shows itself to be successful (hopefully). I do agree that larger firearms can be concealed easier than many people realize, and it sounds like the OP knows that too, which was my point before. Best of luck to the OP. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
October 22, 2020, 05:38 PM | #83 | ||
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What I have a problem with and understanding is, how do their rules supercede my safety, especially if they arent willing to guarentee my safety, if I disarm, and I follow thier rules, and something goes wrong. Been through this with a couple of companys and their HR/lawyers and the answer always was, thats the rules, and as you said, you can leave if you dont like them. Normal wordage in most company manuals prohibits ANY kind of weapons, and their answers were the normal response to the question too. They also told me that they were not responsible if something were to go wrong, so, if I follow their rules Im screwed, if I dont, at least I have a chance, but Im still screwed, as far as the job goes anyway. By the way, each time I was in the office with HR and the lawyers, I was wearing the same gun I was wearing in the CoP's office. Quote:
The goal wast the finger, it was/is my safety. If they arent willing to provide that, and in the next breath, deprive me of it, then yea, they get a wink and the finger. Doom on me if I get caught. On the other hand, its been about 45 some odd years now of daily carry, everywhere and anywhere, and so far, no "doom". |
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October 22, 2020, 05:42 PM | #84 |
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How sure are you, in case something happened and you had to use your weapon to wound or kill a threat, that you would receive support from the church leadership and members?
You used words to the effect that the rules are that no one can know that armed protection is present. In other words, people might object to the whole idea. Self defense and defense of others uses of lethal force can be open to a great deal of contentious conflict, involving people who not only have no experience or knowledge of it, but are psychologically disposed to blaming any user of force for any and all results. You don't want to find yourself in some kind of jackpot, with people you intended to protect, walking away from you.
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October 22, 2020, 05:46 PM | #85 | |
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October 22, 2020, 05:46 PM | #86 |
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Sig P 365--& be happy !!!
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October 22, 2020, 06:00 PM | #87 | ||||
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Clearly you had no respect for the wishes or rules of the people or organizations you were involved with. The OP's situation is different. It's not always just about you. Sometimes people are willing to make sacrifices for things they feel are bigger/more important than themselves.
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October 22, 2020, 06:17 PM | #88 |
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I really dont see it being any different. I dont have any respect for anyone that requires me to follow thier rules and wishes if they are contrary to what I consider my safety.
If they require me to sacrifice, then let me decide how I do it. Im very suspect of those who tell me they know better and I should do as Im told. They usually dont, and I usually dont. Or, do I just do as Im told, and put that vest packed with semtex on and run into some other crowd. At the OP.... do what you feel is best for you. Thats the best you can do. Just dont short change yourself unnecessarily. And dont count on your back being covered either. RAfiringline has a very valid point. |
October 22, 2020, 06:31 PM | #89 | |||
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The more the OP posts, the more ???? it raises.
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You are concerned about overpenetration, being unable to properly conceal your handgun and if printing the reaction of other members of your congregation. All valid concerns, but if you are as well trained as you believe, you would surely know that .380 is often faulted as an under penetrating round. And being well trained means you are aware of the limitations of small pocket pistols, blowback actions and greatly reduced magazine capacity compared to others. Your choice of clothing impacts what method of carry, what type of holster and what type or size of handgun. Telling the forum what you wear to church would be helpful. "Printing" is 99% YOUR fear, 1% "what's that bulge?". Unless you wear lycra shirts two sizes too small its unlikely that any other churchgoer will notice a handgun sized bulge. If they do observe the bulge, the majority will assume its a cellphone, a diabetics belt bag or Depends. If your Sunday dress is a coat or jacket.....you could hide any handgun OWB. If your Sunday dress is a polo or sport shirt, wear it untucked and IWB. You could also go with a holster that doesn't look like a holster: https://sneakypeteholsters.com/ Quote:
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October 22, 2020, 06:34 PM | #90 | |
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October 22, 2020, 06:49 PM | #91 | |
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October 22, 2020, 07:04 PM | #92 | |
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With the extended mag it provides a full grip even for a big hand and is still easy to conceal. The extended mag also expands the capacity to 9+1. Good capacity for a 1" wide single stack. |
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October 22, 2020, 07:16 PM | #93 | |
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You can work your way down the size scale until you find concealabilty. I hope you can get there before you reach the Japanese contract .32. Time to turn off the computer and shoot some guns. |
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October 22, 2020, 07:48 PM | #94 | |
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Spend some time researching what happened to George Zimmerman in Florida. At the start, the police chief found it to be a valid self defense shooting. Then Sharpton and other leftist political activists showed up and the chief resigned, and Zimmerman (who may be a small part African American himself) became a victim of fear politics from politicos reacting to frightened voters. The Zimmerman case was really not a close call, the police had it right at the beginning. You better know what you're doing and who you're depending on, because it has gotten a lot worse.
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October 22, 2020, 08:08 PM | #95 | |
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You mentioned Kahr, but I am not a fan due to the long trigger. The insides are also not as corrosion resistant as other guns, and mine rusted almost to the point it would not fire after sweating all over it (post Hurricane Irma). The longer pull and long reset makes longer distance shots harder and follow up shots slower. I also see no point in going down to .380 acp when there are so many great 9mm pistols that are almost the same size. You also mentioned the Walther PPKS. The German ones are decent, but the American made ones have a bad rep. It is still too heavy for a .380 6 shot. There are so many better choices with polymer guns that are lighter. I understand that your church may have people who are uncomfortable with guns, but not announcing armed security could lead to “friendly fire” situations. Other parishioners may be armed and think that a designated armed security team member may be a threat. You and the security lead may be much better trained than other parishioners. Good luck and take the advice and comments with a grain of salt. It is a public forum with varying degrees of knowledge and backgrounds. My pastor asked if I cared and I told him I did. He said “good”. I’m not sure if we are ready for an armed security team, but I don’t believe there are too many others that carry.
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The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency! Last edited by stephen426; October 22, 2020 at 08:16 PM. |
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October 22, 2020, 08:26 PM | #96 | |
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October 22, 2020, 08:59 PM | #97 |
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I had a crazy idea when they were talking about arming teachers after the Marjorie Stoneman Douglass school shooting. If there are. Bunch of armed teachers, how do responding officers know who the threat is. There is no way for them to know all the teachers in all the schools.
That gave me the idea of a color coded sash with the church name and security team on it. While a vest would be ideal, you can’t pull one on that quickly, especially when responding to a threat. I’m thinking maybe some kind of rolled up ribbon that has church security might reduce the chance of being mistake as a threat. This would have to be quick to deploy and discreet to carry. Thanks for clarifying about the “safety” requirement. Please let us know what you decide to go with. Try and rent whatever you are interested in. Gun availability has been very scarce in many places. Getting to handle a bunch of different guns in a gun store is not so easy anymore.
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October 23, 2020, 11:30 AM | #98 |
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^ we wear a lanyard with identification, but plan is to be holstered when LEO enters.
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October 23, 2020, 03:07 PM | #99 |
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....
Last edited by the duck of death; October 23, 2020 at 03:28 PM. |
October 23, 2020, 03:23 PM | #100 | |
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I don't agree with the light and laser recommendation. I understand the arguments in favor of these things but for real-life civilian defensive encounters both seem a little iffy. It's extra stuff and extra complication. In my experience, lasers do have value as a training tool. As far as lights, I believe in carrying an EDC flashlight. It's very useful for a very wide variety of things. Having a light married to your gun means carrying a second light and pointing your gun wherever you shine it. As far as the Urban Carry goes, don't bother. I looked into one of these and it was a hard pass. Coincidentally, this guy came to the same conclusions I did. If you aren't familiar, Active Self Protection is an excellent YouTube channel that looks at real-life defensive encounters caught on video. It's a valuable resource for anyone interested in these sorts of topics. This is the secondary discussion channel for the trainer and commentator on Active Self Protection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUvpH1u3c-0 |
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