Factory Cowboy Smokeless Loads are Full power!

ZVP · August 6, 2011, 10:06 AM

I did some more reserch this time on the .45LC and I am glad to see reported ftlbs energy levels running from 200 to 300 ft lbs! This is the low for Magtech Cowboy and the High Winchester .45LC. Full weight bullets and powder charges.
So good to see that full power loads and bullets are being loaded even sold thru the big Chain Stores!
IMO loads should approximate oldtime power levels!
I use the Winchester .38 Special 158gr whuch shoots @ 250ftlbs. My everyday reloads approximate or slightly exceed this level so I am trying go keep the power up and away from pipsqueak loads. I mean a full power Winchester .38 Sp dosen't kick that hard at all,and is solidly within CAS limits!
Good to see isn't it?
We need to keep things as "real"as possible!
ZVP

Hawg · August 6, 2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

We need to keep things as "real"as possible!

Tell that to the gamers with their short strokes and mouse fart loads.

Sarge · August 6, 2011, 11:43 AM

My lightest 45 Colt load is a 250 RNFP at 825-850 fps. Me no habla feety-poundy things. Me habla 'big hole thru four feet of critter', fluently. Speak to me in weight/velocity.

ZVP · August 6, 2011, 01:28 PM

I just thinkof Wes Harden and how he overcame the full power .45 Colt to become the man who'd killed the most men! No mousefart loads for Wes, he went for through and through shots, AND ACCURACY!!!
See, it can be done!
ZVP

Newton24b · August 6, 2011, 09:52 PM

original ballistics from the long 8 inch peacemaker barrels traditionally gives 4-450 foot pounds of energy for original 45 colt bp loads back when wesley hardin was killing people and critters. and for the same time elmer keith was carrying a 45 colt to school.

original ballistics data for 44-40 wcf gives a typical 320-350 foot pounds.

T. O'Heir · August 7, 2011, 12:18 AM

"...did some more research..." Keep researching. A Winchester 250 grain .45 Colt lead Super-X has the same ballistics as their Cowboy load. 5 whole grains different weight.
A Winchester Cowboy load .38 Special 158 grain bullet at 225 ft-lbs, not 250, at 800 fps MV isn't "full power". A cast 158 using HS-6 starting load is faster than that.
In any case, CAS shooting is a game that has nothing whatever to do with reality, any more than any of the shooting games.

timothy75 · August 7, 2011, 01:05 PM

Hardins career took place mostly before the 45colt was around, he was also in prison from i believe 1878 to 1894 and being murderd in 1895. I believe the pistol he was carrying the day he was shot was a DA S&W 44russian. This is all from memory but i wouldnt say he used the 45colt much if at all.

zullo74 · August 7, 2011, 02:17 PM

You must be REALLY old!

Rachen · August 9, 2011, 02:29 PM

Quote:

My lightest 45 Colt load is a 250 RNFP at 825-850 fps. Me no habla feety-poundy things. Me habla 'big hole thru four feet of critter', fluently. Speak to me in weight/velocity.

Lightest load? That is pretty impressive. Do you shoot them out of a levergun or a cap and ball conversion?

And do you use smokeless or black powder? If you use smokeless, how do you keep pressures at a minimum while still getting the most speed out of these things?

Sarge · August 9, 2011, 09:53 PM

No black magic at work here, Rachen. Just your basic .45 Colt factory duplication load using a MO Bullet 250 GR. CAST LRNFP and 7.1 grains of W231 for (per Hodgdo's) 13,900 CUP.

I'm shooting them in an old heavy frame Vaquero and a Rossi 92 'trapper' carbine.

ZVP · August 9, 2011, 11:19 PM

Well the Winchester .38 Cowboy Load isn't a slouch in anyones book, that's good to know!
My 4 5/8" New Model Vaquero loves them and they don't seem to leave much lead in the barrel. They're consistant and accurate loads!
ZVP

Hardy · August 12, 2011, 09:55 PM

I heard don't know if it is true that Hardin obtained a law degree and was in a saloon standing at the bar and was shot in the back. The killer got off free since the judge or jury said that Hardin had the advantage by being able to see the man in the glass mirror behind the bar and since being a pro fast gun had the advantage.

WBH

MJN77 · August 12, 2011, 10:14 PM

Quote:

I heard don't know if it is true that Hardin obtained a law degree and was in a saloon standing at the bar and was shot in the back. The killer got off free since the judge or jury said that Hardin had the advantage by being able to see the man in the glass mirror behind the bar and since being a pro fast gun had the advantage.

John Selman's (Hardin's killer) trial ended in a hung jury. While awaiting a retrial, Selman got into an altercation with a man named George Scarburough in a local saloon. They walked out into the ally to continue the argument in private. (Scarburough went out the door first) To make a short story shorter, as the door closed behind Selman, ol' George turned and put four .45 slugs into ol' John. Mr. Selman died in a few hours.

zullo74 · August 13, 2011, 05:31 AM

Hardin did not earn a law degree, He never went to law school. On July 21, 1894 he passed the Texas bar examination, obtaining his license to practice law.

Hardy · August 13, 2011, 11:34 PM

Cool/ learn alot from you ole coots. How and where was John W shot?

WBH

Hawg · August 14, 2011, 04:54 AM

He was playing dice in the Acme saloon in El Paso Texas. He was killed by a man he had hired to kill somebody else(Selman).

breed · August 14, 2011, 09:14 AM

It.s all ways been my under standing that john selman was a lawman. and on the day he killed Hardin. one of Hardin's friends had been drinking heavy that day and making trouble. selman was threatening to arrest him. Hardin found out about it and made a off hand comment that he would kill selman if he did. the rest is history....on a side note George Scarborough selmans killer. died of a gun shot to the leg. (it had to be amputated) that was April 6 1900. 4 years to the day he killed selman.

MJN77 · August 14, 2011, 09:49 AM

Selman may have been a "lawman" in El Paso, but in New Mexico in the 1870s and 80s he was a known murderer, rapist, and cattle/horse theif. He wasn't exactly an upstanding fellow. Some say Selman simply wanted to be the man that killed Hardin.

breed · August 14, 2011, 10:22 AM

the same thing has been said about his one time deputy George Scarborough.

Hawg · August 14, 2011, 10:50 AM

Selman was a constable.

MJN77 · August 14, 2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

the same thing has been said about his one time deputy George Scarborough

Yup, he was a shady fella too.

Stephanie B · August 14, 2011, 07:02 PM

Back to the thread title, Buffalo Bore's standard pressure .45 colt with a 255gr bullet comes out of a 5.5" Ruger at about 560 fl-lbs. The recoil is a bit stouter than the Winchester White Box load (that I bought at Wally-Woild), but nothing objectionable.

ZVP · August 14, 2011, 08:41 PM

It was Selmans Son that Hardin had the run-in with earlier in the day, and Harden swore he'd kill him.
Sellman Sr took the shotgun shot (from behind) to save his son from an inevidable fate.
He just burst thru the doorway and let both barrels rip before Hardin could clear leather!
Just read about it in "Draw", a book by James Reasoner...
ZVP

Hawg · August 14, 2011, 08:45 PM

Yeah, Selmans son arrested Hardins prostitute girl friend and Hardin said he'd kill him. He and Selman had words after that. Plus Hardin owed Selman for a murder he hired him for and didn't pay so Selman already had a score to settle.

MJN77 · August 14, 2011, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Sellman Sr took the shotgun shot (from behind) to save his son from an inevidable fate

Selman didn't use a shotgun. He shot Hardin in the back with a .45 colt revolver. After Hardin fell to the floor, Selman ran up and shot him three more times.

August 6, 2011, 10:06 AM	#1
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Factory Cowboy Smokeless Loads are Full power! I did some more reserch this time on the .45LC and I am glad to see reported ftlbs energy levels running from 200 to 300 ft lbs! This is the low for Magtech Cowboy and the High Winchester .45LC. Full weight bullets and powder charges. So good to see that full power loads and bullets are being loaded even sold thru the big Chain Stores! IMO loads should approximate oldtime power levels! I use the Winchester .38 Special 158gr whuch shoots @ 250ftlbs. My everyday reloads approximate or slightly exceed this level so I am trying go keep the power up and away from pipsqueak loads. I mean a full power Winchester .38 Sp dosen't kick that hard at all,and is solidly within CAS limits! Good to see isn't it? We need to keep things as "real"as possible! ZVP

August 6, 2011, 11:43 AM	#3
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	My lightest 45 Colt load is a 250 RNFP at 825-850 fps. Me no habla feety-poundy things. Me habla 'big hole thru four feet of critter', fluently. Speak to me in weight/velocity. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

August 7, 2011, 12:18 AM	#6
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...did some more research..." Keep researching. A Winchester 250 grain .45 Colt lead Super-X has the same ballistics as their Cowboy load. 5 whole grains different weight. A Winchester Cowboy load .38 Special 158 grain bullet at 225 ft-lbs, not 250, at 800 fps MV isn't "full power". A cast 158 using HS-6 starting load is faster than that. In any case, CAS shooting is a game that has nothing whatever to do with reality, any more than any of the shooting games. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

August 9, 2011, 09:53 PM	#10
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	No black magic at work here, Rachen. Just your basic .45 Colt factory duplication load using a MO Bullet 250 GR. CAST LRNFP and 7.1 grains of W231 for (per Hodgdo's) 13,900 CUP. I'm shooting them in an old heavy frame Vaquero and a Rossi 92 'trapper' carbine. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

August 14, 2011, 04:54 AM	#16
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	He was playing dice in the Acme saloon in El Paso Texas. He was killed by a man he had hired to kill somebody else(Selman). Last edited by Hawg; August 14, 2011 at 05:08 AM.

August 6, 2011, 01:28 PM	#4
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	I just thinkof Wes Harden and how he overcame the full power .45 Colt to become the man who'd killed the most men! No mousefart loads for Wes, he went for through and through shots, AND ACCURACY!!! See, it can be done! ZVP

August 6, 2011, 09:52 PM	#5
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	original ballistics from the long 8 inch peacemaker barrels traditionally gives 4-450 foot pounds of energy for original 45 colt bp loads back when wesley hardin was killing people and critters. and for the same time elmer keith was carrying a 45 colt to school. original ballistics data for 44-40 wcf gives a typical 320-350 foot pounds.

August 7, 2011, 01:05 PM	#7
timothy75 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Nevada Posts: 1,146	Hardins career took place mostly before the 45colt was around, he was also in prison from i believe 1878 to 1894 and being murderd in 1895. I believe the pistol he was carrying the day he was shot was a DA S&W 44russian. This is all from memory but i wouldnt say he used the 45colt much if at all.

August 7, 2011, 02:17 PM	#8
zullo74 Junior member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 374	You must be REALLY old!

August 9, 2011, 11:19 PM	#11
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Well the Winchester .38 Cowboy Load isn't a slouch in anyones book, that's good to know! My 4 5/8" New Model Vaquero loves them and they don't seem to leave much lead in the barrel. They're consistant and accurate loads! ZVP

August 12, 2011, 09:55 PM	#12
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	I heard don't know if it is true that Hardin obtained a law degree and was in a saloon standing at the bar and was shot in the back. The killer got off free since the judge or jury said that Hardin had the advantage by being able to see the man in the glass mirror behind the bar and since being a pro fast gun had the advantage. WBH

August 13, 2011, 05:31 AM	#14
zullo74 Junior member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Posts: 374	Hardin did not earn a law degree, He never went to law school. On July 21, 1894 he passed the Texas bar examination, obtaining his license to practice law.

August 13, 2011, 11:34 PM	#15
Hardy Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 709	Cool/ learn alot from you ole coots. How and where was John W shot? WBH

August 14, 2011, 09:14 AM	#17
breed Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2009 Posts: 230	It.s all ways been my under standing that john selman was a lawman. and on the day he killed Hardin. one of Hardin's friends had been drinking heavy that day and making trouble. selman was threatening to arrest him. Hardin found out about it and made a off hand comment that he would kill selman if he did. the rest is history....on a side note George Scarborough selmans killer. died of a gun shot to the leg. (it had to be amputated) that was April 6 1900. 4 years to the day he killed selman.

August 14, 2011, 09:49 AM	#18
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Selman may have been a "lawman" in El Paso, but in New Mexico in the 1870s and 80s he was a known murderer, rapist, and cattle/horse theif. He wasn't exactly an upstanding fellow. Some say Selman simply wanted to be the man that killed Hardin.

August 14, 2011, 10:22 AM	#19
breed Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2009 Posts: 230	the same thing has been said about his one time deputy George Scarborough.

August 14, 2011, 10:50 AM	#20
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	Selman was a constable.

August 14, 2011, 07:02 PM	#22
Stephanie B Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2008 Location: NWern SE Missouri Posts: 339	Back to the thread title, Buffalo Bore's standard pressure .45 colt with a 255gr bullet comes out of a 5.5" Ruger at about 560 fl-lbs. The recoil is a bit stouter than the Winchester White Box load (that I bought at Wally-Woild), but nothing objectionable.

August 14, 2011, 08:41 PM	#23
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	The truth It was Selmans Son that Hardin had the run-in with earlier in the day, and Harden swore he'd kill him. Sellman Sr took the shotgun shot (from behind) to save his son from an inevidable fate. He just burst thru the doorway and let both barrels rip before Hardin could clear leather! Just read about it in "Draw", a book by James Reasoner... ZVP

August 14, 2011, 08:45 PM	#24
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	Yeah, Selmans son arrested Hardins prostitute girl friend and Hardin said he'd kill him. He and Selman had words after that. Plus Hardin owed Selman for a murder he hired him for and didn't pay so Selman already had a score to settle.