BP Pistol Conversion

[bear108]

I am curious if anyone knows of a specific pistol, that does not need any or very little machine work, to except a conversion kit?? I have an 1860 Amry now, but would like to keep it all original. So if there is a good quality conversion, that works very will with a specific BP pistol, please fill me in. Thank you to all that might be able to help me out!

[zullo74]

The Howell Conversion cylinders need no modification to your Uberti or Pietta M1860 Colt.

http://www.howelloldwestconversions....token=41523859

[Dino.]

A Howell (R&D) conversion cylider should be a drop in replacement with no modifications.

A Kirst Konversion may require some modification for the loading gate.

Those are really the only two manufactures that I'm aware of that make conversion kits.
Others here may know of others.

[ClemBert]

With a gated Kirst Konverter you only have to grind out the recoil shield if you want to use the gate. You can still use the Kirst Konverter like the Howell (R&D) cylinder by taking it out of the frame to reload everytime. That is, you DON"T HAVE TO modify to use the Kirst cylinder. That info just in case in the future if you want the option of a gated 1860.

And...as Dino said, I also believe that Howell and Kirst are your only easy and cost effective solutions for what you seek.

[Billy Shears]

http://www.howelloldwestconversions.com/gated.html

Apparently, Howell's now also has a gated conversion, but it differs from the Kirst in that---"Instead of milling away a portion of the frame, our conversion rings are designed to overcome the need for this operation, while maintaining the appearance of the original conversions."

Not exactly sure how that would work and I've never seen one in person [although I do have one of their drop in cylinders for one of my BP revolvers]. Seems like a good idea.

Anyone familiar with these?

[ClemBert]

My best guess is that the statement about "milling the frame" is a comparison of the Howell solution to traditional solutions used in the late 1800's rather than a comparison to the Kirst solution. In other words, I believe that to use the loading gate that with both the Kirst and Howell gated cylinders you still have to mill out the recoil shield. Off the top of my head I don't see any way around this if you want to breech load.

Keep in mind the Howell solution with the gated cylinder still requires the following:

"Our conversion ring is securely mounted to the frame by two machine screws which require drilling and tapping."

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, bear108. I have a circa 1971 Colt re-make 1851 navy .36, and an early 1980 Colt 1860 army .44. Both are fitted with kirst Konverter cyl. The .36 is .38 long colt, the .44 is .45 colt. I couldn't bring myself to grind on that beautiful case-coloring..and didn't want to alter genuine Colts. Both conv. cyl. drop right in. Do require taking brl. off to load/unload..but still faster..and cleaner with smokeless than percussion. Best of luck!

[bear108]

Thank you all for your help. One questions still gets me though. Since I don't want to chance the pistol I have now, I need to start looking for a used one, that I can add the conversion to. So, do they make these conversions for just about every pistol or should I look for a specific one?? For example, 1860, 1851, army, navy, etc.....

[ClemBert]

I think you misunderstand....

You don't have to modify your revolver to use a conversion cylinder. My suggestion would be to get a Howell conversion cylinder that does NOT have a loading gate OR get a Kirst cylinder with or without a loading gate. You don't have to mill anything to use it.

If you don't understand how a conversion cylinder works then this video may help. While it is for a ROA the idea is the same for an 1860.

[Billy Shears]

One more "heads-up" so to speak...

I don't know about the Kirst cylinders, but the pix of the Howell's cylinders shown on the website do not show that these cylinders have safety stop notches between chambers. What this means is, when you go from an ordinary BP shooter to a conversion cylinder you technically go from a six shooter to a five shooter, but because there is no place to safely rest the hammer on the conversion unit, you are really going from a six shooter to a four shooter. I don't think it would be much fun breaking down the revolver to reload after every four rounds.

[MJN77]

On the 5 shot conversion cylinders, there is a "safety notch" in place of a sixth chamber, that is seen on the left in the link below.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...60408&CAT=3782
So, no, it does not become a 4 shot cylinder. I know the link is for a remington cylinder, but the 1860 cylinders that I have seen have them too.

[ClemBert]

Originally Posted by threedogdad

I don't think it would be much fun breaking down the revolver to reload after every four rounds.

I definitely feel that way about the Colt designs with a conversion cylinder without a loading gate. Doesn't seem to be much fun to have to whack the wedge out to remove the conversion cylinder for reloading. The ROA and the 1858 Remington among others don't have the problem that the Colts do.

That's why with my Colt conversion I went with a loading gate (Kirst) and having the recoil shield ground out. I don't have to screw with the wedge when breech loading.



But on the ROA I went with a Howell (R&D) cylinder. Very easy to remove the cylinder without tools.

[Billy Shears]

ClemBert,

That is one big cartridge you have sticking out of that Walker's cylinder.

I remember another thread around here that dealt with your creation, [.460 S&W, wasn't it?] but I don't recall whatever became of it. Do you still shoot it?

What kind of ballistics do you get out of that thing? Do you load it with BP? Are you able to run it fairly stout without damage to the revolver?

[Billy Shears]

On the 5 shot conversion cylinders, there is a "safety notch" in place of a sixth chamber, that is seen on the left in the link below.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Detail.as...60408&CAT=3782
So, no, it does not become a 4 shot cylinder. I know the link is for a remington cylinder, but the 1860 cylinders that I have seen have them too.

Thank you. I stand corrected. I just looked at this on Howell's website and not only do the "Colt" cylinders now have safety stops, they have one for each chamber so you don't have to keep spinning the cylinder around to the same spot in order to carry it safely. Seems kind of like the miniature North American Arms .22 revolvers. Very nice idea. It's still kind of a pain to keep disassembling the Colts, but not so bad as I thought it was.


http://www.howelloldwestconversions....token=57304468

[ClemBert]

bear,

The link that threedogdad posted is most likely the conversion cylinder you'll want to get if you don't want to modify your 1860 nor have plans to do that in the future.



threedogdad,

I've got the performance numbers posted within this video as well as in the comments section.

[bear108]

I can't thank you all enough for all ur replies and information. My plan was to buy a new BP pistol and then get the conversion. That being said, do y'all have a certain BP pistol that would work well with a conversion kit?? That is my big question. What pistol should I look at?

[Billy Shears]

Bear,

I'm not nearly the expert ClemBert and others are around here. I love shooting BP revolvers and I love loading 45 Colt catridges with BP to shoot out of my Vaquero, but my experience is far more limited than others here so take this for what it's worth.

My recommendations to you for conversion would be either an 1858 Remington or an 1860 Colt.

There are so many good choices though it's really hard to go wrong, but those seem to be two very good candidates for conversion.

Good luck.

[bear108]

Thank you, three dog dad!! That was one of my biggest question. I want to start from scratch here and wanted some input on what were decent guns, style and maker, to start with.

[Bishop Creek]

Having owned and fired both Kirst and R&D (Howell) conversion cylinders without loading gates on both Remington and Colt style cap and ball revolvers, the 1858 Remington is hands down the quickest and easiest to use.

[Ideal Tool]

Hello, bear108. There is one thing to keep in mind..if your do any alteration of frame to allow ctg. loading, that gun no longer is considered a black powder arm, but a modern type firearm..and must be registered.

[arcticap]

I disagree. Simply altering the frame does not mean that the frame needs to be registered.
As long as the cap & ball cylinder will still work in the frame, and the conversion cylinder isn't sold or transferred when installed in the frame, then the frame doesn't need to be registered or transferred by an FFL.

[ClemBert]

Originally Posted by Ideal Tool

There is one thing to keep in mind..if your do any alteration of frame to allow ctg. loading, that gun no longer is considered a black powder arm, but a modern type firearm..and must be registered.

That discussion has been had on this and other forums ad nauseum. Its NOT true. On the federal level you won't have to do a thing. Depending on where you live with your local laws YMMV.

[wogpotter]

That discussion has been had on this and other forums ad nauseum. Its NOT true. On the federal level you won't have to do a thing.

Not trying to put out a fire with a bucket of gasoline here but this is just one such discussion. I just gave up & said to hell with it after this thread. I wasn't even trying to do the conversion, just drop in a cylinder. *sigh*

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=456949

[ClemBert]

wogpotter,

I can completely understand your frustration concerning your OP in the thread you had started. I skimmed through it quickly. Clearly it was a good move on your part to ask question specific to the BATF to eliminate the noise concerning local law.

Some of the responses to this question, which gets asked often, just aren't logical but are rather based on the individuals perception of how things "should be" or perhaps based on their local laws...which, very smartly, you didn't ask about.

Those who state that a modified cap-n-ball revolver (to accept a conversion cylinder) "must", by law, be registered should help the rest of us understand what they believe the process is. For example, my questions to them would be:

1. Who do I register this modified firearm with?
2. What paperwork or forms (form number) do I need to fill out?

I am in possession of such a firearm. Specifically, I have a replica Walker that I had modified to allow breech loading by use of a gated Kirst conversion cylinder. Have I broken the law by not "registering" it? The gunsmith who did the modification and installed the cylinder shipped it directly to my house from another state. Did he break the law? Was he supposed to send it back to me only through a local FFL?

[wogpotter]

Yes, I was trying to be very specific, both as to Federal law & to not modifying the frame AT ALL. It related to a very specific comment made elsewhere as well & I didn't want to muddy the waters.

I know there have been several posts on various forums where it's obvious (whether the OP in those threads knows it or not) that he is trying to "game the system", that wasn't at all what I was thinking, although it may have been taken that way & the responses angled accordingly! If I want to run cased ammunition I just shove a .357 Mag in the ol' Dan Wesson & call it good.

I think a lot of confusion exists between JUST dropping in a conversion cylinder & making a cartridge conversion to the frame as well so I tried to be really, really specific about that.

Fortunately the urge has passed & I'll just stuff powder, wad, ball & cap in the .44 Remington & call it good.