Frustrated with 45 LC brass/reloading

[the45er]

I successfully reloaded 15-20 calibers of pistol and rifle cartridges over the last 30 years but have met my match. I just received 100 new, unprimed brass casings for 45 LC. Six of them wouldn't go into the shell holder for expanding the neck. After finally priming them, I put 9 grains of Unique in the casings and started putting the 200 grain Speer JHP bullets on top of the powder. About 30% of them allowed the bullet to drop via its own weight down into the cartridge and rest upon the top of the powder charge. Virtually all of the bullets were very loose in the case and I mean I barely expanded the necks.

Now for the fun part. I could NOT adjust the seating die to hold the bullet in place! If it would barely roll crimp, the bullet could still be pulled out by hand. If I adjusted the die down barely 1/8 of a turn from this condition, it would put 3-4 folds in the brass, effectively ruining it! I could not find a position between these two points that would crimp the bullet firmly into position. The die either crushed the brass or would not hold the bullet. Weirdly, I could feel the die crimp the brass onto the bullet but when I'd pull it out, I could easily spin the bullet in the cartridge brass.

I think MidwayUSA has sold me some very defective brass, but thought I'd give the experts here on thefiringline as chance to offer some suggestions.

Thank you.

[disseminator]

What brand is the brass? Did you full length re-size it?

Have you measured your bullets to confirm they are the right size?

[GeauxTide]

More information, please. What dies are you using, brand of brass? The 200 Speer JHP bullets are .451 diameter, made for the 45 Auto. The 45 Colt is currently .452 diameter, but was .454 in original form. What is the revolver?

[mehavey]

I just received 100 new, unprimed brass casings for 45 LC. Six of
them wouldn't go into the shell holder for expanding the neck.

Out of curiosity, did you resize them first? And what brand/number shellholder?

If I adjusted the die down barely 1/8 of a turn from this condition,
it would put 3-4 folds in the brass

Were you seating/crimping in one step? (That's an absolute no-no without a crimp groove on that Gold Dot)

And as others have asked... what brand brass? (and does it really say 45 Colt on the head?
Whose reloading dies?

[the45er]

Well men, you live and learn. Turns out 45 LC brass needs to be resized, new or not. Had to back track and re-do some things, but I'll get there.

The brass says "45 Colt" on the base and there are two asterisks (stars) connected by a short line etched in the base. Brand? I bought it at MidwayUSA.

When 94/100 of the brass cases go into the shell holder perfectly, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that I'm using the wrong shell holder.

Now, this comment is intriguing:

Were you seating/crimping in one step? (That's an absolute no-no without a crimp groove on that Gold Dot) Why not? Should I seat 100 bullets then go back and crimp them in another 100 steps? I thought the whole purpose of having the adjustment the way it is was to do this in one step? Incidentally, I resized, expanded the neck, charged and re-set the bullets on five cases tonight, seating/crimping in one step. Seems to be fine now. As another post I read said "It's not the crimp that holds the bullet in place, but rather the resized case." I wish I'd have read that sooner!

[Oliver Sudden]

You have Starline brass, good stuff.

[mehavey]

Starline -- best brass there is

On crimping... the Colt takes a roll crimp to prevent bullet creep out of the case on recoil, and that's what the stock 45 Colt seating die has.

That roll crimp requires a crimp groove in the bullet if you're going to seat/crimp in one step. If you don't have a groove, the case bites into the body of the bullet right off the bat, and then the locked-in bullet crumples/balloons the case as it's shoved further down.

You either need to use a bullet w/ a cannelure/groove, or do a 2-step seat/crimp... or get another seating die with a "squeeze" crimp shelf like the Lee.
(Personally -- I'd go get some nice "Cowboy" 250gr Keith-type semi-wadcutters. They're just hard enough to handle good 45 Colt velocities, heavy enough to penetrate well, have a superbly-wide enough metplat to smack things pretty nastily, soft enough to expand a bit,... and have a crimp groove)


postscript: what shellholder brand/# are you using?
RCBS #20
Hornady #32
Lyman #11
Lee #11/14

[disseminator]

mehavey is 100% correct.

You can use 45 AUTO bullets (that's what they are if there is no crimp groove or cannelure) in the 45 Colt but you NEED a taper crimp die and you must do it in a seperate step.

It's just easier to use 45 Colt bullets that have a crimp groove, then you can use the method you were with the crimp and bullet seating in one step.

Live and learn.

[FrankenMauser]

Starline -- best brass there is

...Except when it's not.

Starline puts out bad brass sometimes, and their tolerances can be just as bad as other brands.

My biggest problems with Starline brass have come from the lack of annealing after final forming. Some cartridges are so work-hardened that they cannot be sized properly until annealed. BRAND NEW brass that has to be annealed to be used as intended...

[mehavey]

There was a little girl...
Who has a little curl...
Right in the middle of her forehead.
.....
And when she was good...
She was very very good.
And when she was bad... she was horrid.




(I'll still take Starline anyday.....)

[disseminator]

Nice poem.

I have literally thousands of pieces of Starline Brass in multiple calibers and have never had a single bad piece of brass FWIW.

[Pathfinder45]

The 45 Colt is just as easy to reload as any other straight-walled revolver cartridge. It's important to use the right bullets, and that's true of any caliber. I always resize new brass, and trim it for the first loading as well. You'll get the hang of it. It's a lot like reloading for the 44 magnum.

[HiBC]

Another happy Starline brass fan here.

45 Colt is an interesting proposition to load.As has been mentioned,over the long history, the bullet standard has varied from .454 to .451 .I'm not sure,but if you pick up a 1970's vintage S+W 25-5 it may well have .454 cylinders and throats. Maybe a Ruger 45 ACP 45 Colt convertible Blackhawk would be .451. A Colt Single Action Army might be .454.

Supposedly the new stuff is now .452 or so I have been told.

If you are Starline,what size do you make it?Its easier with factory ammo. It has to fit the factory bullet.

Now,enter another subtlety. I'm not sure this affects dimensions,but some folks want Ruger +P thunderhumper 45 colt loads. Strong Brass!

But remember,its a huge blackpowder case. Some folks want light cowboy shoot loads. They want the case to obturate and seal at low pressure.

You are Starline. What do you do?

I can tell you what Starline did!! They made a 45 Colt rim and case head with 45 ACP length and capacity for Cowboy shooters.

I suggest you first slug your bore. Try to choose bullets that do two things. First,just slip fit into your cylinder throats so you can load. But the largest bullet that does that.No rattle. Ideally,that will be .001 over groove dia.
The shortcut,fit them to the cylinder throats.

You may be stuck with your sizing die dia,without getting fancy and having it custom honed. But you can change and or polish down expander balls.THe Lyman "M" type expanders are nice if they are compatible.Lyman makes "Cowboy"type dies,too.

You DO want neck tension.A tight bullet without te crimp...but then DO roll crimp if you have a groove.

Myself?? Unless there was a darn good reason,and I cannot think of one,I'd never shoot jacketed in a 45 Colt. I'd used cast bullets.Perfect match

[BBarn]

There is some variability in 45 Colt reloading tools. The two 45 Colt sizing dies I have (different brands) measure .004" different in diameter. And with shellholders, at least one company uses a common shellholder for both 44 Special/Mag and 45 Colt.

I've ran into rim size issues before with 44 Mag brass. A few cases would not fit into the shellholder, but I was able to use a different shellholder (may have been for a 45 Colt, the rim sizes are close).

I generally crimp in a separate step for everything. It's a little more work, but it seems to work better for me. Both roll and taper crimp rounds.

I've loaded some 45 Colt with 45 Auto bullets (no cannelure). It's a bit touchy getting a crimp that doesn't dig into the bullet with a roll crimp die. In some instances I've used a taper crimp die of the same caliber. Like using a 45 Auto taper crimp die to crimp non-cannelured bullets in the 45 Colt.

Oh, one last thing. I always size brass, whether already fired or new. I find new pistol brass is usually over the desired diameter, and new rifle brass is usually small enough in the body and shoulder, but the necks are often dented a little or are too big.

[the45er]

Great help and suggestions here gentlemen. Thank you.

[jaguarxk120]

It would also help if you said what brand of dies you are using. The crimping operation is different on some brands.
And are the loads for a revolver or rifle?

[alexcue]

https://www.starlinebrass.com/faqs/

Read down where it says "Does one need to resize...."

Personally I’ve also had to lube 45 Colt, especially when brand new.

[FrankenMauser]

What shell holder were you using?

[Unclenick]

Alexcue,

Good link. Starline tells you right up front you may need to. They are apparently making the brass for the older .454" bullet diameter, as otherwise folks will be stretching the cases and overworking the brass, shortening its life. Pay attention to the comment about resizing new brass only to the bullet seating depth (Case Length + Bullet Length - COL=Bullet Seating Depth) to save overworking the brass. In this older, low pressure cartridge, the brass may spring back from the chamber walls well enough that you may never have to resize more than that, or at least, not very often.


The45er,

The other way to crimp your cases is with one of the Lee Collet Style Crimp Dies. It doesn't push down on the brass at all, so it can't wrinkle it. It also is very strong and will actually impress a crimp groove into your Gold Dot for you. That will solve the issue of using a bullet intended for a semi-auto pistol in a revolver.

As to FrankenMauser's question about your shell holder, some people make them tighter than others, so merely changing brands may solve the problem for you. The standard numbers are below.

,45 Colt Shell Holders:
Lee: 11
Lyman: 11
RCBS: 20
Redding: 23
Hornady: 32
C&H: LC

You could also call Starline and ask if they have a recommendation. You can also check your case dimensions against the SAAMI drawing and make sure yours do not exceed theirs and probably return them to Midway if they do. You could try any of the others makes you friends may have lying around. In the last extreme, C&H will make a custom one for you if you send the sample cases that have a problem.

[fredvon4]

Been reloading 45 Colt for a decade... some questionable range brass, but usually Starline new... loads easy with my set up

Per lubed Lead with cannelure.. .452
Lee Presses and dies
No problems

typically 990 +/- out of 1000 function as predicted...the 9 or 10 that misfired-- I chalked up to poor primer selection for the light loads in giant cases.... or more to the point ,,,,all the powder in the cartridge void moved forward...

I experimented with poly batting fill to keep powder back on the primer...works but too fiddly, change from Win to Fed primers seemed to reduce mis fires

My 45 Colt revolver(s) are for target only...
I do not have any 45 colt rifles

In the Taurus Judge Carry gun...it gets fed very good high dollar kill people bullets on sale from Wally World...been so long since I bough them I forget brand... prolly something like Hornady leverreverolutions or some thing silly like that

any way.... the real key to the OP problem and all the previous notes is the type bullet OP is using... one step seat and crimp really needs a bullet with a cannelure to work reliably

BTW #1... I only load the black death store bought in the carry revolver cuz I trust them LONGER that my reloads in a carry gun

I reload this size cuz store bought lead target rounds are ridiculously high priced due to popularity of CowBoy shootin

This may torque some purists...but the el chapo Tarus Judge 5 shot is a better revolver comfort and accuracy wise than some of my more traditional 45 Colt revolvers

OK my .01Cents... Half price opinions