stopping power statistics

[brickeyee]

Why do LEOs have a distaste for the 1911? Why didnt LEOs switch over to the 1911 and stick with revolvers?

Very few are 'gun people,' and their bosses are scared of cocked and locked.

[Webleymkv]

If you were around the guy I’m talking about, you would understand where he’s coming from. His experiences are from undercover work with highly paranoid and motivated drug dealers. Right or wrong he has the convictions and confidence in himself that brings to mind Dirty Harry or Det. Jimmy 'Popeye' Doyle.
He doesn’t care about gel blocks, goat studies or crowd control.

His conclusions, laughable or not, come from close quarters, real life situations where there’s a real nasty human animal out to do him harm. In his opinion, when he has shot scumbags at close range, their reactions to a 9mm vs. a .45 seem to be different.

This would be hard to put to a scientific test. Maybe he’s just superstitious. Just like gamblers and baseball players, he seems to base his actions and beliefs on past scenarios. The opinions may not be statistically sound, but don't try to prove them wrong to his face.

I think his comments also reflect the fervent loyalty many LEO’s have for their 1911. The LEO’s I talk to aren’t being funny when they argue the merits of their favorite firearm vs. a 9mm.

What you seem to be missing is that the seconhand accounts of a proverbial "Dirty Harry" or "Popeye Doyle," particularly when posted anonymously on the internet, do not a convincing argument make.

[David Armstrong]

What you seem to be missing is that the seconhand accounts of a proverbial "Dirty Harry" or "Popeye Doyle," particularly when posted anonymously on the internet, do not a convincing argument make.

Also one should realize that the fictional Popeye Doyle AND the real MOS he was modeled after (Eddie Egan) both carried .38 Spl. revolvers!

[SPUSCG]

"Very few are 'gun people,' and their bosses are scared of cocked and locked. "

well it would be hard to switch off a safety and shoot under a quick stressful situation like the car driver pulling a weapon

[Tamara]

Originally Posted by SPUSCG

well it would be hard to switch off a safety and shoot under a quick stressful situation like the car driver pulling a weapon

Are you hypothesizing, or is this a personal observation?

[SPUSCG]

half my teachers are LEOs/former leos and i hear about a ton of shooting incidents

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by SPUSCG

...well it would be hard to switch off a safety and shoot under a quick stressful situation like the car driver pulling a weapon...

Not at all -- at least if one is prepared to train and practice sufficiently (based on my own training experience). I've trained to shoot a 1911 with a high thumb, riding the safety. I've also trained to sweep the safety off after the gun has cleared the holster and as it is being rotated toward the target. Disengaging the thumb safety on the draw stroke has become second nature.

[Tamara]

Originally Posted by SPUSCG

half my teachers are LEOs/former leos and i hear about a ton of shooting incidents

Ah.

[Brit]

Let us address the taking off of a safety catch as the bad guy in the car draws his gun!

A question, is it better to draw a gun, point it, press the trigger, and a bullet is airborne, or add one more action, the taking off of a safety catch as well!

A true story, not a "Happened to a friend one" big IPSC match (USPSA/IPSC Nationals) in Norfolk VA, you opened a door, Pizza in strong hand, as targets swung up towards you, two of them, you drew, and fired 4 rounds, two on each of the two targets swinging towards you. They continued on the curve, and fell to the ground. I missed the safety! No hits on those two targets, how many times had I drew and fired with a .45 Colt 1911? 1000s of times! Thousands of times! Promptly turned to a Glock 17 for my match gun.

Had that have been a fight for my life? Guess I would have not done so good Aye?

[Frank Ettin]

I'll tell you what, Brit. I'll continue to use a 1911, and you use something else.

This topic has been beaten to death. I know a lot of people who have trained extensively with a 1911, carry one and have every confidence in both the gun and their training. I do as well (through the years I've probably fired almost 100,000 rounds with a 1911).

We hear all sorts of horror stories, of one type or another. With the 1911, it's usually about not disengaging the safety. With Glocks, etc., we hear about all sorts of NDs. One can mess things up with pretty much any type of gun. Pretty much all of the problems are ultimately training, practice or maintenance issues. In other words, problems are use induced.

Each person should choose the personal weapon that he has confidence in and manages well. There are quite a few handgun designs that can well fulfill the mission requirements for a personal sidearm, especially for a private citizen. The 1911 is one of those, and there are others. The most important things are that (1) YOU can mange it properly, so choose the design that works best for you; and (2) whatever gun you choose, you should get good training and then practice regularly and diligently.

With training and practice, pretty much any gun of decent quality will do. But some people find some designs suit them better than others.

Under stress, one reverts to his level of training, and no type of gun will make up for a lack of training. Of course someone with minimal training may think he is better off with a DA pistol, but he's fooling himself if he thinks he's truly capable with it or doesn't need more and better training to manage it effectively.

[pax]

Oh, sure guys. Thanks a lot.

We neatly dodge the can of gasoline & lighted match when someone starts a thread about stopping power, but that's not good enough for us. No, not by a long shot. Instead we're out shopping for Molotov Cocktails and resurrecting the old Glocks vs 1911s debate ...

<moderator hat on>

No more thread veer, please. If you want to argue about 1911 vs Glock, go do that over in the Handgun Forum. I'm sure the moderators there will appreciate it.

</moderator hat off>

Now, where were we? Ahh, yes. Back to the peaceful and quiet and calm discussion of stopping power.



pax

[JohnKSa]

No more thread veer, please. If you want to argue about 1911 vs Glock, go do that over in the Handgun Forum. I'm sure the moderators there will appreciate it.

Dunno about Mal, but it's definitely what I live for...

[Brit]

Now, where were we? Ahh, yes. Back to the peaceful and quiet and calm discussion of stopping power.

Will do.

[JohnH1963]

What happens to a human being when they are hit with a bullet 9 times out of 10? Do they continue moving towards you? My bet is they will dive for cover or attempt evasive action if they are not killed. How many targets will continue towards you at a high rate of speed if hit with 2-3 bullets? Even if the hits were in the legs or arms, what are the chances they will continue?

Some may point out examples like the Miami shooting, but Im willing to bet those are anomalies caused by a highly motivated and well trained aggressor under unusual circumstances.

A few bullets of any caliber will do some damage and I can bet the target isnt going to be moving quite as fast once hit with a few bullets of any caliber.

However, I will take the .45 for home defense

[Japle]

The whole point of “stopping power” is to STOP the BG from doing what he’s doing. If he falls down and dies, fine. If he runs away, fine. If he drops his gun and screams “No mas!!”, fine.

The point is to effect a “channel change” ASAP. Get him off the ATTACK channel and onto the GOTTA GET TO THE ER channel.
Handgun calibers are notoriously ineffective at doing this.
It’s logical that .41 and .44 magnums should work better than .45ACP, .40 S&W and hot 9mm loads, but the bad guys have their own logic. Even 12 ga buckshot and slugs don’t always work on the first try.

Shoot to lockback or until you no longer have a target.

You'll know you no longer have a target when you lose sight of the BG and find him on the ground, not moving.

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.

[nate45]

Originally Posted by JohnH1963

What happens to a human being when they are hit with a bullet 9 times out of 10? Do they continue moving towards you? My bet is they will dive for cover or attempt evasive action if they are not killed. How many targets will continue towards you at a high rate of speed if hit with 2-3 bullets? Even if the hits were in the legs or arms, what are the chances they will continue?

Did you see Tamara's post?

Originally Posted by Tamara

1) Every gunshot wound is a unique occurrence.
2) Every gunfight is a unique occurrence.

The truth is no one knows the answers to the questions you posed. We all like to hope that an attacker would stop after being shot, but we can't count on it. So no matter how much reading, speculating, bullet testing and target practice we do, we will never know for certain how a shooting incident will turn out till it actually happens.

That was the long winded version of...

1) Every gunshot wound is a unique occurrence.
2) Every gunfight is a unique occurrence.

[KLRANGL]

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.

I betcha that when the GG finds his gun in the hands of the BG, he wishes he had a gun that held fewer rounds and less powerful ammo... That's a whole 'nother discussion right there, but think about this: what would you rather be shot with?

Pros and cons for any bullet out there, and everyone has their own opinion. There cant really be "one right" caliber, just the one "right" caliber for any one person. For me, its the .40. Manageable and still some power behind it as well as decent magazine capacity. Some people cant handle the .40 (or .45 for that matter) without training more than they already do...

For what its worth, my dad's friend who recently retired 26years as a Delta operative said he loved the 9mm for defense and .45 for offense. And he always says shot placement trumps stopping power. But he gets paid to practice, most of us dont, so take it for what you will...

[Nnobby45]

I think his comments also reflect the fervent loyalty many LEO’s have for their 1911. The LEO’s I talk to aren’t being funny when they argue the merits of their favorite firearm vs. a 9mm.

Ok, good enough, but I suspect the rest of them don't attribute the effectiveness to the loud noise and flash. The caliber actually does work, and I doubt a silenced weapon would be less effective.

Personally, I don't think I'd be less scared if shot at with a 9mm, and probably wouldn't be inclined to assess what specific caliber Bubba was trying to murder me with.

On the other hand, I have no evidence that loud noise and flash have no effect, either. Maybe there's someone out there who's survived being shot at enough times with different calibers and could enlighten us.

[Regular Joe]

One fine day, I was at the target end of an open 100 yd. range, putting up a few targets. Out of nowhere, bullets started impacting very near me! I jumped behind a berm, and watched to see if the shooter was going to cease. If anything, the hits were getting closer. I mean within 5 feet of me, so he was obviously not shooting at anything in his lane.
I was carrying my P-85, loaded with 8 gr. of Blue Dot and the 124 gr. XTP over a Rem benchrest rifle primer. He was in his van, shooting an AR on a bipod, but there was a concrete bench right in front of him. I laid a full 18 round mag into that bench. That load does make lotsa' bang and big fire, and those bullets were smacking the concrete with authority. He didn't assess my load, but made hasty tracks.
Big noise and flash is good. Accuracy is good. Not having to kill the moron is good. 9mm is good, but ONLY when you work your loads out to the potential of the round, in a gun that can handle it.

[Sarge]

Many things have contributed to the misinterpretation of stopping power as some kind of black science- which it is not. I think if we can establish rational guidelines about what we need to accomplish, we can draw rational conclusions about the appropriate tools for the job. We are also going to dispense with a supposedly `key' concept which has contributed very little to our understanding of this subject- and can get you killed, if you rely on it to the exclusion of everything else.

http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/stoppingpower.html

[Sulaco2]

I gave up long ago trying to find the "magic" bullet and settled for one that is indicated by where the graph lines meet. Kind of what my department did in picking a round, actually four in 9mm to .45. I have seen two people DRT from chest and neck wounds from 2" barreled junk revolver .22 LR's and two (one just last month) take .44 magnums from four inch barrelled revolvers to the chest and live. Point? You pays your money and takes your chances if you carry. You may make it with what you have and you may not. I go with Tam on this, what you have may depending on a myriod of factors leave you breathing "this time" and work like a water pistol next time. Welcome the the real world my friends...

Jeez Sarge do you ever sleep??

[OldMarksman]

Great link, Sarge!

[JohnH1963]

Why wouldnt a department let the officer choose what caliber they feel most comfortable with...I mean the main calibers (9 mm, 10 mm, .45, .40, 357 sig).

For example, Officer A may do better with a .45 where as Officer B might do better with a 9...

[Sulaco2]

Some do. Mine lets you have a 9mm, .40 or .45.....as long as its a Glock.
Others on the Left Coast let you pick one of the three but buy your own gun out of a list of approved...differs by area and politics.

[buzz_knox]

Some may point out examples like the Miami shooting, but Im willing to bet those are anomalies caused by a highly motivated and well trained aggressor under unusual circumstances.

A few bullets of any caliber will do some damage and I can bet the target isnt going to be moving quite as fast once hit with a few bullets of any caliber.

There are so many incidents of individuals continuing to function after being shot, stabbed, bombed, concussed, flamed, spindled, mutilated and/or folded that the incidents cease to be anomalies and become statistically significant. That's why you continue shooting until the threat stops, because said threat may not realize that he or she has been shot.