1851 Colt Navy .36 Information

Duke48 · January 18, 2024, 12:29 PM

I have a 1851 Colt Navy .36 cal. made in Italy, manufactured by Hawes Firearms Co. Los Angeles Calif. in 1850. SSN: 0577 of the first 2500 manufactured during that year. This revolver has been handed down through the family over the years. The story is that the revolver, and musket which I also have, was carried by a family member during the ACW. Trying to weed out details can be a little confusing when reading articles, and watching videos on the internet. Seems most of the information out there leans toward the later revolvers manufactured. With some of the changes that have evolved in the newer guns, it is hard to validate info for this particular weapon. I have attached some photos for your review, and would like any knowledge, or direction about this revolver, and time period that you would be willing to share with me.

Thank you

Oliver Sudden · January 18, 2024, 01:51 PM

It was not actually around during the civil war. It’s a modern made replica if it has Italy on it. Hawes was the importer of replica guns not a manufacturer. I am not on facebook so none of your pictures can be viewed by me.

Jim Watson · January 18, 2024, 02:31 PM

I am on Facebook and still cannot call up those pictures.
But as said, Hawes was an importer in the 1960s and maybe up into the 1980s.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 18, 2024, 07:16 PM

A Hawes 1851 could have been manufactured by Uberti, Pietta, or possible Armi San Marco. Look more closely at the markings. As has been mentioned, Hawes was the importer. If it's Hawes, it almost certainly was NOT manufactured in 1850.

I also can't see the photos.

Bishop Creek · January 19, 2024, 12:01 AM

It's definitely an Italian made replica, likely made in the late 1960s or '70s. I had one just like it in 1969. Colt never made a brass framed revolver.

Look for a date code on the side of the revolver, that will tell what year it was made or proofed in Italy. The date code is usually Roman numerals or letters in a box stamped on the barrel.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...45180112_z.jpg

**Aguila Blanca** · January 19, 2024, 12:24 AM

Duke48, please post the photos here directly, rather than linking to Facebook where we can't see them.

Hellgate · January 19, 2024, 12:34 AM

Your gun was made in Italy during 1969 as shown by the year of manufacture mark of XXV. The superimposed lettering looks like IGG but could be DGG which is the Armi San Paolo (later called Euroarms) maker's mark.

Jim Watson · January 19, 2024, 04:41 AM

Quote:

and musket which I also have,

Now show the musket, maybe it will be period or at least identifiable.

Duke48 · January 19, 2024, 09:13 AM

I have tried to post pictures direct, but continues to ask me for a http site. Could use some instruction for direct uploading.

ligonierbill · January 19, 2024, 10:08 AM

Hit the attach file paper clip. A prompt will come up with 3 "choose file" boxes. Drag your photo to a box and hit "upload". You will probably need to compress you files first <1 MB or it won't take them.

Hawg · January 19, 2024, 10:41 AM

It was made by Armi San Paolo in Italy and imported by Hawes. It was definitely not used in in the ACW.

Duke48 · January 19, 2024, 12:02 PM

Here are a few more pics of the 1851

Duke48 · January 19, 2024, 12:04 PM

Here is the last photo for review. Thanks for the help on the picture uploads...

Will be uploading the musket photos when I take them.

Bishop Creek · January 19, 2024, 02:16 PM

Yup, that XXV date code gives it a date of manufacture and proofing in 1969.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 19, 2024, 02:57 PM

Duke, did you look at the right side of the barrel? Where it says "made in italy"?

As others have pointed out, Colt didn't make 1851 Navy revolvers (or any other cap and ball revolvers) with brass frames.

Everything about this firearm says it's a modern, Italian-made copy of a Colt 1851. Sorry to pour cold water on your family lore, but there's simply no way that revolver even existed at the time of the Civil War.

Duke48 · January 19, 2024, 03:19 PM

No cold water here. You just never know what kind of tails you're going to hear growing up...Lol. I'm going to have someone check it out for functionality and see if it is safe to fire. My son would enjoy shooting the black powder colt with me and then passing it on to him.

Thanks for everyone's input on this piece, and will be posting pic's on the musket today or tomorrow for some responses.

Thanks all

Jim Watson · January 19, 2024, 03:51 PM

In the pictures it looks all but new, I would have no worries about shooting it.
The brass frame is not as strong as steel, most shooters use lighter loads in them than they do a steel gun.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 20, 2024, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

The brass frame is not as strong as steel, most shooters use lighter loads in them than they do a steel gun.

This is important. Gun scribe Mike Bellevue has mentioned that his first cap-and-ball revolver had a brass frame. He said by the time he had to quit shooting it the frame had stretched by some outlandish number. I actually think I remember the figure being 1/8-inch, but that seems rather extreme. Whatever it was ... it was a lot.

deerslayer303 · January 20, 2024, 11:50 AM

I think a brass frame in .36 is probably ok with 15-18 grain charges. And after watching 11 bang bang's channel on YT modify a brasser 1851 into a G&G. This brass alloy the Italians are using isn't as soft as we may think.

bamaranger · January 20, 2024, 02:59 PM

Somewhere I heard the reasoning that the brass frame guns cropped up in that era largely intended for the reenactors who would be shooting blank rounds. I have a pal who was into the reenactment bit, as was his son, they were in a cav unit that did a lot of dismounted stuff. (seems the officers had horses or some such arrangement). He and his boy put likely some thousands of blanks thru their Remingtons, as well as a reenactor grade Sharps carbine and some type of musketoon with no ill effect.

I suspect the advent of Cowboy Action and live ammo brought the drawbacks of brass frames to the fore. I have also heard the discussion that as the Italians realized that their brass guns were actually being shot with live ammo, not blanks, that the composition of their brass changed to a somewhat stouter alloy. Still, I would not push a brass C&B hard if I intended to shoot it very much...15-20 grains seems about right.

Duke48 · January 20, 2024, 06:32 PM

Here are the pictures of the musket. There are some markings on it, and I know nothing about it other than it was also passed down throu the family. There are numbers and one on the rear top of the barrel "1835". So, any information on this weapon you might have would be very appreciated.

Thanks

Duke48 · January 20, 2024, 06:34 PM

More photos

Duke48 · January 20, 2024, 06:37 PM

One last photo

Jim Watson · January 20, 2024, 08:01 PM

Navy Arms got the repro business going in the CW Centennial with the Yank 1851 Colt and Reb Griswold and Grier/Gunnison. The Reb had a brass frame and dragoon barrel, a pretty faithful reproduction of one of the better known Confederate weapons.

The musket is a German piece, imported by both sides to supplement the common Springfields and Enfields.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 20, 2024, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deerslayer303

And after watching 11 bang bang's channel on YT modify a brasser 1851 into a G&G.

What's a G&G?

January 18, 2024, 07:16 PM	#4
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,479	A Hawes 1851 could have been manufactured by Uberti, Pietta, or possible Armi San Marco. Look more closely at the markings. As has been mentioned, Hawes was the importer. If it's Hawes, it almost certainly was NOT manufactured in 1850. I also can't see the photos. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

January 19, 2024, 12:01 AM	#5
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 566	It's definitely an Italian made replica, likely made in the late 1960s or '70s. I had one just like it in 1969. Colt never made a brass framed revolver. Look for a date code on the side of the revolver, that will tell what year it was made or proofed in Italy. The date code is usually Roman numerals or letters in a box stamped on the barrel. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...45180112_z.jpg Last edited by Bishop Creek; January 19, 2024 at 12:13 AM.

January 19, 2024, 12:24 AM	#6
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,479	Duke48, please post the photos here directly, rather than linking to Facebook where we can't see them. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

January 19, 2024, 12:34 AM	#7
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	Your gun was made in Italy during 1969 as shown by the year of manufacture mark of XXV. The superimposed lettering looks like IGG but could be DGG which is the Armi San Paolo (later called Euroarms) maker's mark. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

January 19, 2024, 02:57 PM	#15
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,479	Duke, did you look at the right side of the barrel? Where it says "made in italy"? As others have pointed out, Colt didn't make 1851 Navy revolvers (or any other cap and ball revolvers) with brass frames. Everything about this firearm says it's a modern, Italian-made copy of a Colt 1851. Sorry to pour cold water on your family lore, but there's simply no way that revolver even existed at the time of the Civil War. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

January 18, 2024, 01:51 PM	#2
Oliver Sudden Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2017 Location: Colorado Posts: 272	It was not actually around during the civil war. It’s a modern made replica if it has Italy on it. Hawes was the importer of replica guns not a manufacturer. I am not on facebook so none of your pictures can be viewed by me.

January 18, 2024, 02:31 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,547	I am on Facebook and still cannot call up those pictures. But as said, Hawes was an importer in the 1960s and maybe up into the 1980s.

January 19, 2024, 09:13 AM	#9
Duke48 Junior Member Join Date: January 11, 2024 Posts: 10	I have tried to post pictures direct, but continues to ask me for a http site. Could use some instruction for direct uploading.

January 19, 2024, 10:08 AM	#10
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,459	Hit the attach file paper clip. A prompt will come up with 3 "choose file" boxes. Drag your photo to a box and hit "upload". You will probably need to compress you files first <1 MB or it won't take them.

January 19, 2024, 10:41 AM	#11
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	It was made by Armi San Paolo in Italy and imported by Hawes. It was definitely not used in in the ACW.

January 19, 2024, 02:16 PM	#14
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 566	Yup, that XXV date code gives it a date of manufacture and proofing in 1969.

January 19, 2024, 03:19 PM	#16
Duke48 Junior Member Join Date: January 11, 2024 Posts: 10	No cold water here. You just never know what kind of tails you're going to hear growing up...Lol. I'm going to have someone check it out for functionality and see if it is safe to fire. My son would enjoy shooting the black powder colt with me and then passing it on to him. Thanks for everyone's input on this piece, and will be posting pic's on the musket today or tomorrow for some responses. Thanks all

January 19, 2024, 03:51 PM	#17
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,547	In the pictures it looks all but new, I would have no worries about shooting it. The brass frame is not as strong as steel, most shooters use lighter loads in them than they do a steel gun.

January 20, 2024, 11:50 AM	#19
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,654	I think a brass frame in .36 is probably ok with 15-18 grain charges. And after watching 11 bang bang's channel on YT modify a brasser 1851 into a G&G. This brass alloy the Italians are using isn't as soft as we may think. __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

January 20, 2024, 02:59 PM	#20
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,318	talk Somewhere I heard the reasoning that the brass frame guns cropped up in that era largely intended for the reenactors who would be shooting blank rounds. I have a pal who was into the reenactment bit, as was his son, they were in a cav unit that did a lot of dismounted stuff. (seems the officers had horses or some such arrangement). He and his boy put likely some thousands of blanks thru their Remingtons, as well as a reenactor grade Sharps carbine and some type of musketoon with no ill effect. I suspect the advent of Cowboy Action and live ammo brought the drawbacks of brass frames to the fore. I have also heard the discussion that as the Italians realized that their brass guns were actually being shot with live ammo, not blanks, that the composition of their brass changed to a somewhat stouter alloy. Still, I would not push a brass C&B hard if I intended to shoot it very much...15-20 grains seems about right.

January 20, 2024, 08:01 PM	#24
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,547	Navy Arms got the repro business going in the CW Centennial with the Yank 1851 Colt and Reb Griswold and Grier/Gunnison. The Reb had a brass frame and dragoon barrel, a pretty faithful reproduction of one of the better known Confederate weapons. The musket is a German piece, imported by both sides to supplement the common Springfields and Enfields.