Arisaka

MasterGagne · March 2, 2015, 11:42 AM

I need some help folks, I have a mystery stamp on my Arisaka, it's a crescent moon just in front if the action where the barrel threads in. I've looked all over the Internet and can't find any with it

Help/suggestions!!?

James K · March 2, 2015, 12:26 PM

IMHO, that is not a meaningful mark. It looks like someone hit the barrel with a tool of some kind. If it ever had some meaning or purpose I doubt anyone except that "someone" will ever know.

Jim

jimbob86 · March 2, 2015, 12:43 PM

Looks right similar to the crescent that the Turks put on their collection of stuff that ran through their arsenals...... I have a Commission Rifle with one of those maks on the bolt.

Slowhand · March 2, 2015, 02:27 PM

Rare, but not unheard of. The British bought over 500,000 mixed Arisaka Rifles from Japan for use by T. E. Lawrence's (AKA Lawrence of Arabia) Arab Army use in WWI. Yours possibly fell into Turkish hands and got re-stamped.

I gather from your previous postings that it was assumed to be a mid-war production model. But who knows?

tahunua001 · March 2, 2015, 04:55 PM

not likely with a type 99. TE Lawrence predated the type 99.

James K · March 2, 2015, 09:11 PM

Aw, Tahunua, you spoiled a good story about how Lawrence was really a Samurai who freed the Middle East from ISIS by wielding an Arisaka captured by the Americans after WWII. Boy, time machines all over the place! Take that Einstein!

And the Turks used a lot of different rifles, but Type 99's were not among them.

Jim

sgms · March 2, 2015, 09:32 PM

I'd be thinking it is probably an inspectors mark.

tahunua001 · March 3, 2015, 12:33 AM

but Jim, Samarais don't use guns

James K · March 3, 2015, 12:50 AM

In fact, they grab rifles by the butt and swing the bayonet like a sword.

Jim

Gunplummer · March 3, 2015, 05:45 PM

looks like a "First quality" circle stamp that was not held correctly when stamped. Is it a chrome bore?

Dragonflydf · March 3, 2015, 09:35 PM

all Type 99s have chrome bores.

James K · March 3, 2015, 10:51 PM

I confess to ignorance. What is a "first quality" stamp on an Arisaka? When was it applied and on what basis? That looks like a fairly late rifle, and the ground "mum" indicates it was one of many thousands taken from depots in Japan after the end of the war. And, yes, all Type 99 barrels were chrome plated almost to the end.

Jim

crazy charlie · March 5, 2015, 08:37 AM

Suggest you go to the Surplus Rifle Forum for information. They have a section on Japanese rifles and the folks on that forum are very knowledgeable.

Gunplummer · March 5, 2015, 09:38 AM

All type 99's do not have chrome bores. A "First quality" stamp was a simple circle used by inspectors. Although records were kept, clerical things started to fall apart later in the war. Judging by the look of the wood and the type 99 stamped on the receiver, I would not say that the rifle was made that late in the war. There is no end to the weird stamps found on Arisakas. I had many with mismatched stamps on the serial numbers. I had some that made it into service with no serial numbers at all. Some rifles were reworked and had new matching numbers added under the stamped out original numbers. These rifles really had ordnance stamps all over them. After late 1943, just about anything would go out the door and did. As for the "Defaced MUM", nobody really knows the real story behind that. There are several stories floating around, but no real solid information was ever turned up.

Dragonflydf · March 5, 2015, 11:14 AM

What series ? the only type 99s without chrome bores were very late production. I looked at my 3 Type 99s and none have that marking.

MasterGagne · March 5, 2015, 11:19 AM

It's a Series 6 Nagoya it's serial number is 19492 Whuch makes it pretty early for that series, it's got the mounts for the anti-aircraft wings on the rear sight and the lug for the mono-pod. It's in pretty good shape overall and it's one of the nicer ones I've seen. I was just curious about the mark because it just seems out of place but matches the patina on the rifle

It is chrome lined in the barrel... It's like a mirror in there, way brighter than any of my modern rifles

tahunua001 · March 5, 2015, 02:27 PM

if that was just an off center circle punch it would be uniformly transitioning from deep to shallow indentation. it wouldn't cut the edges out and leave the center intact. that looks to me like an intentional crescent.

James K · March 5, 2015, 04:51 PM

Hi, Gunplummer,

I sure agree about "weird stamps" but I had never heard or read about a "first quality" mark, and have a hard time reconciling it with a mass production operation in wartime. Would that rifle have been issued to some special unit, or reserved for rifle marksmanship competition or for a presentation piece?

I don't think there is much doubt about the ground crests. The "mum" is not the symbol of Japan, like the U.S. eagle. It was and is the personal symbol of the emperor. As part of his desire to keep the emperor as a figurehead to pacify the Japanese, MacArthur allowed the Japanese workers in the arms depots to remove the emperor's symbol from material that was to be turned over to the Allies, thus avoiding the disgrace and loss of face which would have resulted from its being in foreign hands.

Of course, when GI's realized that a ground "mum" indicated a rifle from a depot, disproving their stories about capturing the rifle in hand-to-hand combat with a Japanese general, they concocted all kinds of stories to explain it.

The most fanciful was told to me by a vet. He had captured his rifle in vicious fighting in the jungle (of a recruiting station in Pennsylvania). No sooner had he come home than the FBI came to his door and took the rifle; when they brought it back, the crest had been ground. It seems that Harry Truman personally kept track of every Japanese rifle brought back and wanted to make sure the "mum" was ground off, so he had the FBI round them all up and grind the crests. And, just think; he had time to be president, too. I really think the guy expected me to believe that nonsense, but I just smiled and left.

Jim

Gunplummer · March 5, 2015, 05:33 PM

A circle punch held at an angle on a radius will give you something like that. I don't know when the "First quality " stamps started. I had a couple Type 30's but I really could not say if any of them had it or not. It is a real common mark on the Type 38's, no matter what arsenal they came from. Because of that, I assume it was an official mark and not just some worker's ID stamp.

I have to agree with you James K. If I had $20 for every "sniper rifle" that someone tried to sell me that "Dad" brought back, I would have quit working years ago. The MUM thing is weird. There are thousands of 6.5's with the MUM. I am guessing they came from China. I used to buy 6.5x50 surplus ammo that was made in the 50's in China. It was probably made on the original machinery. I can remember buying a carbine stock about 20 years ago that was also allegedly Chinese surplus. Who knows where this stuff pops up from. I had about 40-50 rounds of 6.5 FMJ ammo with a KYNOCH (Spelling?) headstamp.

tahunua001 · March 5, 2015, 07:39 PM

I recall reading that a large number of the chinese captures were converted to 7.62x39 and depending where they were done essentially looked like a bolt action SKS when they were done.

James K · March 5, 2015, 10:54 PM

Hi, Gunplummer,

I was just wondering how you knew what that mark was. I don't recall seeing it mentioned in anything I have read or seen. Given its location, I would think it might indicate that the rifle had been rebarrelled.

Jim

Gunplummer · March 6, 2015, 06:45 AM

There is a very in depth book out there put together by a man named Honeycut. I think his first name was Fred. Before the internet B/S came along, it was the Bible for Arisakas. A lot of the information came from Japanese Ordnance personnel through the US military. The book has photos of about any example of WWII Japanese rifles you can think of.
I do remember seeing some Arisakas advertised by an importer that supposedly had been converted to 7.62x39 by the Chinese. I never saw any and they were gone right away. Same with the .30 carbines they made fro the NDF. One ad and gone.

Gunplummer · March 6, 2015, 06:49 AM

Speaking of rebarreling, I have switched barrels on quite a few and I often wondered if they had some type of "master thread gage" to keep the alignment the same between factories. I only remember one gun (A late war rough example) that would not align properly.

MasterGagne · March 6, 2015, 10:53 AM

So basically this could be just a random mark, a first quality mark (which it means what exactly?) or even rebarreled / rechambered for a different caliber?! I'm more confused now than when I started

crazy charlie · March 6, 2015, 02:19 PM

Mastergagne,
Get unconfused. Go the The Surplus Rifle forum.
There's more B.S. on this thread that is just convoluting your original question.
Ask the experts.

March 2, 2015, 02:27 PM	#4
Slowhand Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 263	Battle Captured Rare, but not unheard of. The British bought over 500,000 mixed Arisaka Rifles from Japan for use by T. E. Lawrence's (AKA Lawrence of Arabia) Arab Army use in WWI. Yours possibly fell into Turkish hands and got re-stamped. I gather from your previous postings that it was assumed to be a mid-war production model. But who knows? Last edited by Slowhand; March 2, 2015 at 02:48 PM.

March 2, 2015, 04:55 PM	#5
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	not likely with a type 99. TE Lawrence predated the type 99. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 3, 2015, 12:33 AM	#8
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	but Jim, Samarais don't use guns __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 3, 2015, 09:35 PM	#11
Dragonflydf Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2014 Posts: 217	all Type 99s have chrome bores. __________________ Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!! https://www.facebook.com/shoot.the.guns.of.history

March 5, 2015, 09:38 AM	#14
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	All type 99's do not have chrome bores. A "First quality" stamp was a simple circle used by inspectors. Although records were kept, clerical things started to fall apart later in the war. Judging by the look of the wood and the type 99 stamped on the receiver, I would not say that the rifle was made that late in the war. There is no end to the weird stamps found on Arisakas. I had many with mismatched stamps on the serial numbers. I had some that made it into service with no serial numbers at all. Some rifles were reworked and had new matching numbers added under the stamped out original numbers. These rifles really had ordnance stamps all over them. After late 1943, just about anything would go out the door and did. As for the "Defaced MUM", nobody really knows the real story behind that. There are several stories floating around, but no real solid information was ever turned up. Last edited by Gunplummer; March 5, 2015 at 09:43 AM.

March 2, 2015, 12:26 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	IMHO, that is not a meaningful mark. It looks like someone hit the barrel with a tool of some kind. If it ever had some meaning or purpose I doubt anyone except that "someone" will ever know. Jim

March 2, 2015, 12:43 PM	#3
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	Looks right similar to the crescent that the Turks put on their collection of stuff that ran through their arsenals...... I have a Commission Rifle with one of those maks on the bolt.

March 2, 2015, 09:11 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Aw, Tahunua, you spoiled a good story about how Lawrence was really a Samurai who freed the Middle East from ISIS by wielding an Arisaka captured by the Americans after WWII. Boy, time machines all over the place! Take that Einstein! And the Turks used a lot of different rifles, but Type 99's were not among them. Jim

March 2, 2015, 09:32 PM	#7
sgms Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2010 Location: Arizona or Ohio depending Posts: 1,021	I'd be thinking it is probably an inspectors mark.

March 3, 2015, 12:50 AM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	In fact, they grab rifles by the butt and swing the bayonet like a sword. Jim

March 3, 2015, 05:45 PM	#10
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	looks like a "First quality" circle stamp that was not held correctly when stamped. Is it a chrome bore?

March 3, 2015, 10:51 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I confess to ignorance. What is a "first quality" stamp on an Arisaka? When was it applied and on what basis? That looks like a fairly late rifle, and the ground "mum" indicates it was one of many thousands taken from depots in Japan after the end of the war. And, yes, all Type 99 barrels were chrome plated almost to the end. Jim

March 5, 2015, 08:37 AM	#13
crazy charlie Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: PA Posts: 229	Suggest you go to the Surplus Rifle Forum for information. They have a section on Japanese rifles and the folks on that forum are very knowledgeable.

March 5, 2015, 11:14 AM	#15
Dragonflydf Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2014 Posts: 217	What series ? the only type 99s without chrome bores were very late production. I looked at my 3 Type 99s and none have that marking. __________________ Jack, You have Debauched my sloth !!!!!! https://www.facebook.com/shoot.the.guns.of.history

March 5, 2015, 11:19 AM	#16
MasterGagne Junior Member Join Date: January 30, 2015 Location: Michigan Posts: 12	It's a Series 6 Nagoya it's serial number is 19492 Whuch makes it pretty early for that series, it's got the mounts for the anti-aircraft wings on the rear sight and the lug for the mono-pod. It's in pretty good shape overall and it's one of the nicer ones I've seen. I was just curious about the mark because it just seems out of place but matches the patina on the rifle It is chrome lined in the barrel... It's like a mirror in there, way brighter than any of my modern rifles

March 5, 2015, 02:27 PM	#17
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	if that was just an off center circle punch it would be uniformly transitioning from deep to shallow indentation. it wouldn't cut the edges out and leave the center intact. that looks to me like an intentional crescent. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 5, 2015, 04:51 PM	#18
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Gunplummer, I sure agree about "weird stamps" but I had never heard or read about a "first quality" mark, and have a hard time reconciling it with a mass production operation in wartime. Would that rifle have been issued to some special unit, or reserved for rifle marksmanship competition or for a presentation piece? I don't think there is much doubt about the ground crests. The "mum" is not the symbol of Japan, like the U.S. eagle. It was and is the personal symbol of the emperor. As part of his desire to keep the emperor as a figurehead to pacify the Japanese, MacArthur allowed the Japanese workers in the arms depots to remove the emperor's symbol from material that was to be turned over to the Allies, thus avoiding the disgrace and loss of face which would have resulted from its being in foreign hands. Of course, when GI's realized that a ground "mum" indicated a rifle from a depot, disproving their stories about capturing the rifle in hand-to-hand combat with a Japanese general, they concocted all kinds of stories to explain it. The most fanciful was told to me by a vet. He had captured his rifle in vicious fighting in the jungle (of a recruiting station in Pennsylvania). No sooner had he come home than the FBI came to his door and took the rifle; when they brought it back, the crest had been ground. It seems that Harry Truman personally kept track of every Japanese rifle brought back and wanted to make sure the "mum" was ground off, so he had the FBI round them all up and grind the crests. And, just think; he had time to be president, too. I really think the guy expected me to believe that nonsense, but I just smiled and left. Jim

March 5, 2015, 05:33 PM	#19
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	A circle punch held at an angle on a radius will give you something like that. I don't know when the "First quality " stamps started. I had a couple Type 30's but I really could not say if any of them had it or not. It is a real common mark on the Type 38's, no matter what arsenal they came from. Because of that, I assume it was an official mark and not just some worker's ID stamp. I have to agree with you James K. If I had $20 for every "sniper rifle" that someone tried to sell me that "Dad" brought back, I would have quit working years ago. The MUM thing is weird. There are thousands of 6.5's with the MUM. I am guessing they came from China. I used to buy 6.5x50 surplus ammo that was made in the 50's in China. It was probably made on the original machinery. I can remember buying a carbine stock about 20 years ago that was also allegedly Chinese surplus. Who knows where this stuff pops up from. I had about 40-50 rounds of 6.5 FMJ ammo with a KYNOCH (Spelling?) headstamp.

March 5, 2015, 07:39 PM	#20
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I recall reading that a large number of the chinese captures were converted to 7.62x39 and depending where they were done essentially looked like a bolt action SKS when they were done. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 5, 2015, 10:54 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Gunplummer, I was just wondering how you knew what that mark was. I don't recall seeing it mentioned in anything I have read or seen. Given its location, I would think it might indicate that the rifle had been rebarrelled. Jim

March 6, 2015, 06:45 AM	#22
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	There is a very in depth book out there put together by a man named Honeycut. I think his first name was Fred. Before the internet B/S came along, it was the Bible for Arisakas. A lot of the information came from Japanese Ordnance personnel through the US military. The book has photos of about any example of WWII Japanese rifles you can think of. I do remember seeing some Arisakas advertised by an importer that supposedly had been converted to 7.62x39 by the Chinese. I never saw any and they were gone right away. Same with the .30 carbines they made fro the NDF. One ad and gone.

March 6, 2015, 06:49 AM	#23
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Speaking of rebarreling, I have switched barrels on quite a few and I often wondered if they had some type of "master thread gage" to keep the alignment the same between factories. I only remember one gun (A late war rough example) that would not align properly. Last edited by Gunplummer; March 6, 2015 at 07:15 AM.

March 6, 2015, 10:53 AM	#24
MasterGagne Junior Member Join Date: January 30, 2015 Location: Michigan Posts: 12	So basically this could be just a random mark, a first quality mark (which it means what exactly?) or even rebarreled / rechambered for a different caliber?! I'm more confused now than when I started

March 6, 2015, 02:19 PM	#25
crazy charlie Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: PA Posts: 229	Mastergagne, Get unconfused. Go the The Surplus Rifle forum. There's more B.S. on this thread that is just convoluting your original question. Ask the experts.