Colt DA 38 help

sparkysgirl97 · September 4, 2015, 06:18 PM

Need some help with my revolver. Can someone help me confirm when it was manufacturered? Thanks in advance.

spacecoast · September 4, 2015, 08:28 PM

I believe the number shown is an assembly number, check for the serial number inside the crane (with the cylinder open), or on the butt of the gun.

sparkysgirl97 · September 4, 2015, 09:13 PM

Same number there too. K2267

James K · September 4, 2015, 09:38 PM

The serial numbers of the Colt New Army and New Navy revolvers are on the butt. It is possible that those custom grip are covering it up.

That appears to be the 3" barrel civilian model, a standard, but uncommon, barrel length. Most were 6", and Colt also offered a 4 1/2" length.

Unfortunately, that gun has been heavily polished and reblued, reducing the value considerably. The commercial New Army and New Navy were civilian versions of the revolvers that were made in several models for the U.S. military on both Army and Navy contracts and were the standard service revolvers from 1892 to 1909.

Jim

9ballbilly · September 4, 2015, 09:41 PM

That looks like a Colt New Army model with 3" bbl.

Is there a serial number on the bottom of the grip frame?

sparkysgirl97 · September 4, 2015, 09:42 PM

Nope, checked under the grips, which were hand marked with 2267 as well. The barrel is a 2" barrel. This gun has never been polished or touched, I know that for a fact

Bill DeShivs · September 4, 2015, 10:53 PM

You are very wrong. The gun has been refinished-without a doubt.

sparkysgirl97 · September 4, 2015, 10:58 PM

Well considering my father owned it, he never had a gun refinished, and I have an Agent as well that has never had any work other than a pair of grips made that I personally had done, in the same condition, this part of the discussion is over.

So back to the question at hand, when was this gun manufacturered

bedbugbilly · September 5, 2015, 10:33 AM

Take your serial number - go to "proofhouse" (google it) and find out - list of models under Colt will be on the left - click on it to bring up the serial number ranges and the years of production - simple task.

James K · September 5, 2015, 10:48 AM

Whether the gun is the New Army or New Navy cannot be determined with any certainty from the information provided; the only visible difference was in the original grips. The Navy also had a stamped "N" under the crane, though.

The number shown is an assembly number, which will not match the serial number. The only sure way to date that gun is by its serial number, which apparently has been removed. That presents a rather serious problem, since removing or altering a serial number, or possession of a gun on which the serial number has been removed or altered is a federal felony.

Jim

sparkysgirl97 · September 5, 2015, 11:17 AM

Jim, let me make this very clear to you. Nothing has been removed from this gun. NOTHING. Implying that my decease Father did something beyond the realm of legal requirements is quite a slap in the face that I do not appreciate.

**OldMarksman** · September 5, 2015, 11:35 AM

Sparkysgirl, if the firearm had a serial number, and if it no longer has one, the number has been removed.

If I wanted to find out whether all such Colts originally had serial numbers I would ask James K.

Regardless of when it was removed or defaced by whom, it is unlawful to receive or possess it.

James K · September 5, 2015, 11:48 AM

Sorry if I have offended you, and I admire your faith in your father, but both Bill DeShivs and I have simply stated facts. The gun has been heavily polished and reblued and you have said that the serial number has been removed.

On the issue of legality, I did not imply anything, I simply stated a fact. IF the serial number has been altered or removed, the gun is illegal to possess. Who actually removed or altered the number, or when, is irrelevant. Whether the gun is an antique (made before 1 January 1899) might alter the situation, but without a serial number that can't be determined.

I doubt very much that BATFE or anyone else would ever bother you about it, but my comment was intended to be a note of caution, not an accusation.

It is sometimes a hard lesson, but anyone who asks a question about the value or authenticity of a gun or anything else has to be able to handle the responses, even if they are not to one's liking. If you choose to think we are engaged in some kind of vendetta against you, you are wrong. I don't know you, did not know your father, and have no reason to do other than give you the best answer I can based on the information you provided.

Jim

gyvel · September 6, 2015, 10:27 PM

Not to add more fuel to the fire, but I don't ever recall seeing any of the Colt 1889/1892 et. al. family of revolvers with a round butt.

If the butt was reconfigured sometime during the gun's lifetime, it's entirely possible that the designations on the bottom of the butt, including the serial number were removed.

highpower3006 · September 7, 2015, 08:03 AM

This is a picture of a Colt New Army revolver. Note the shape of the grip area and compare it to the one you have.

Your father may very well have never touched or altered that gun, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't worked on before he got it. I don't know when he acquired it, but it could be old enough to pre date when he was born, let alone when he wound up with it.

Now, you contacted this forum in search of information about your gun. It does you little good to get upset when the information you get does not fit your preconceived idea of what you have. If you are that concerned about whether the serial number has been removed you should contact the Colt collectors forum and ask them also.

FWIW, I agree that it has been refinished.

mapsjanhere · September 8, 2015, 09:45 AM

Sparksy, in case you missed it, this gun model was last manufactured in 1908. Unless your father was born in the 1890 and bought the gun new there's no way to be sure of the history; even if he never changed anything on the gun he might have purchased it that way after the butt was modified.

Dfariswheel · September 8, 2015, 09:19 PM

If you aren't satisfied with the expert help here, you might go over to the Colt forum and ask for help from member "DACOLTGUY".

He's Robert Best who is THE expert on the Colt New Army & Navy revolvers.
He wrote the standard collectors reference book on these Colt's.

http://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Double...1764525&sr=1-1

The Colt forum:

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/forum.php

Here's a little info on your Colt.
In 1889 Colt introduced the world's first double action, swing-out cylinder revolver.
This was the Colt New Navy of 1889.
In 1892 the US Army also bought it and it is usually known as the Colt New Army & Navy series.

Colt put the design through a rapid series of improvements including 1889, 1892, 1894, 1895, 1896, 1901, and 1903.
Production ended in 1907.

These were available as US military issue and commercial civilian sales guns.
The military versions were chambered in .38 Long Colt, had smooth wood grips, six inch barrels, and had US Army or Navy stamps on the butt.

It was the Colt New Army in .38 Long Colt that failed in the Moro War in the Philippines and led to the development of the .45 Automatic.

The commercial versions were available in 3 inch, 4 1/2 inch, and 6 inch barrels.
Calibers were the .38 Long Colt, and the .41 Long Colt.
Very late in production they were chambered in .32-20 and .38 Special.
Grips were hard black rubber with molded in checkering and Colt logos.

ON ALL GUNS THE SERIAL NUMBER WAS STAMPED ON THE BOTTOM OF THE BUTT IN TWO LINES.
Some guns were stolen from the military and others were legally purchased as surplus but owners were afraid the US military stamps would be thought to be a stolen military issue gun so people sometimes ground the serial numbers off.
Since the butt was perfectly flat, removal of the numbers and any US stamps was easy.
Because it was too easy to remove the serial number, in 1908 Colt moved serial numbers of new model revolvers to the inside of the frame under the barrel.

There are other numbers on some parts. These are factory assembly numbers used in the Colt factory to keep fitted parts together during manufacture until the actual serial number was assigned and stamped on the butt.
Once the actual serial number was stamped, the factory assembly number ceased to have any meaning.
If the gun is in the original factory assembly condition, all the assembly numbers will match.
Mis-matching numbers means parts have been replaced.

Note that most of these guns were actually chambered for the obsolete .38 Long Colt. This IS NOT THE .38 SPECIAL, even though the .38 Special will chamber.
If the gun is shot it should be fired with modern Cowboy shooting type .38 Long Colt ammo, or custom hand loaded light loads in .38 Special brass.
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD IT BE FIRED WITH MODERN FULL POWER .38 SPECIAL AMMO.
These pre-1900's gun were not made of modern steels or with modern heat treating.

The gun should be treated gently.
These have notoriously fragile actions that break or get out of order rather easily.
Due to the complexity of the action and lack of any parts, repairs are pretty much impossible to get.

As for the finish.
The original guns were finished with the old Colt heat bluing process where specially prepared parts were put in steel drums and baked in temperature controlled ovens to turn them a bright blue.
Some parts, like the hammer and trigger were given a different heat bluing process and these are recognized by a brilliant mirror-like light blue color.

In your guns case, the finish is very obviously a much later type of blued finish done using a modern hot salts bluing process which looks much different then the original oven heat blue.
Note also that the gun shows very obvious signs of haven been polished by a less than expert polisher who rounded off the edges and corners that should be sharp and left ripples in the flat surfaces.

Bottom line:
Your Colt New Army & Navy model has been refinished with a modern type of bluing, and the serial number has been removed from the butt.
As explained above, it makes NO difference who removed it, when, or why, today, due to Federal and State laws, possession is a felony offense because under the Gun Control Act of the 1960's removal or defacement of a serial number on a gun that originally had a serial number is a crime.

Again, if you're not satisfied with the information given you here by some experts, go the the link I gave to the Colt Forum and talk to THE real expert, Bob Best who is the internationally recognized expert on these Colt's.

September 4, 2015, 09:41 PM	#5
9ballbilly Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: northeast Florida Posts: 611	That looks like a Colt New Army model with 3" bbl. Is there a serial number on the bottom of the grip frame? __________________ may God eternally bless the American Rifleman--- as long as one stands, resolute, liberty shall not perish.

September 4, 2015, 10:53 PM	#7
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,986	You are very wrong. The gun has been refinished-without a doubt. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

September 5, 2015, 10:33 AM	#9
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Take your serial number - go to "proofhouse" (google it) and find out - list of models under Colt will be on the left - click on it to bring up the serial number ranges and the years of production - simple task. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

September 6, 2015, 10:27 PM	#14
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Not to add more fuel to the fire, but I don't ever recall seeing any of the Colt 1889/1892 et. al. family of revolvers with a round butt. If the butt was reconfigured sometime during the gun's lifetime, it's entirely possible that the designations on the bottom of the butt, including the serial number were removed. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

September 8, 2015, 09:45 AM	#16
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Sparksy, in case you missed it, this gun model was last manufactured in 1908. Unless your father was born in the 1890 and bought the gun new there's no way to be sure of the history; even if he never changed anything on the gun he might have purchased it that way after the butt was modified. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

September 4, 2015, 08:28 PM	#2
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	I believe the number shown is an assembly number, check for the serial number inside the crane (with the cylinder open), or on the butt of the gun.

September 4, 2015, 09:13 PM	#3
sparkysgirl97 Junior Member Join Date: September 4, 2015 Posts: 5	Same number there too. K2267

September 4, 2015, 09:38 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The serial numbers of the Colt New Army and New Navy revolvers are on the butt. It is possible that those custom grip are covering it up. That appears to be the 3" barrel civilian model, a standard, but uncommon, barrel length. Most were 6", and Colt also offered a 4 1/2" length. Unfortunately, that gun has been heavily polished and reblued, reducing the value considerably. The commercial New Army and New Navy were civilian versions of the revolvers that were made in several models for the U.S. military on both Army and Navy contracts and were the standard service revolvers from 1892 to 1909. Jim

September 4, 2015, 09:42 PM	#6
sparkysgirl97 Junior Member Join Date: September 4, 2015 Posts: 5	Nope, checked under the grips, which were hand marked with 2267 as well. The barrel is a 2" barrel. This gun has never been polished or touched, I know that for a fact

September 4, 2015, 10:58 PM	#8
sparkysgirl97 Junior Member Join Date: September 4, 2015 Posts: 5	Well considering my father owned it, he never had a gun refinished, and I have an Agent as well that has never had any work other than a pair of grips made that I personally had done, in the same condition, this part of the discussion is over. So back to the question at hand, when was this gun manufacturered

September 5, 2015, 10:48 AM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Whether the gun is the New Army or New Navy cannot be determined with any certainty from the information provided; the only visible difference was in the original grips. The Navy also had a stamped "N" under the crane, though. The number shown is an assembly number, which will not match the serial number. The only sure way to date that gun is by its serial number, which apparently has been removed. That presents a rather serious problem, since removing or altering a serial number, or possession of a gun on which the serial number has been removed or altered is a federal felony. Jim

September 5, 2015, 11:17 AM	#11
sparkysgirl97 Junior Member Join Date: September 4, 2015 Posts: 5	Jim, let me make this very clear to you. Nothing has been removed from this gun. NOTHING. Implying that my decease Father did something beyond the realm of legal requirements is quite a slap in the face that I do not appreciate.

September 5, 2015, 11:35 AM	#12
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	Sparkysgirl, if the firearm had a serial number, and if it no longer has one, the number has been removed. If I wanted to find out whether all such Colts originally had serial numbers I would ask James K. Regardless of when it was removed or defaced by whom, it is unlawful to receive or possess it.

September 5, 2015, 11:48 AM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Sorry if I have offended you, and I admire your faith in your father, but both Bill DeShivs and I have simply stated facts. The gun has been heavily polished and reblued and you have said that the serial number has been removed. On the issue of legality, I did not imply anything, I simply stated a fact. IF the serial number has been altered or removed, the gun is illegal to possess. Who actually removed or altered the number, or when, is irrelevant. Whether the gun is an antique (made before 1 January 1899) might alter the situation, but without a serial number that can't be determined. I doubt very much that BATFE or anyone else would ever bother you about it, but my comment was intended to be a note of caution, not an accusation. It is sometimes a hard lesson, but anyone who asks a question about the value or authenticity of a gun or anything else has to be able to handle the responses, even if they are not to one's liking. If you choose to think we are engaged in some kind of vendetta against you, you are wrong. I don't know you, did not know your father, and have no reason to do other than give you the best answer I can based on the information you provided. Jim

September 7, 2015, 08:03 AM	#15
highpower3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Savannah TN Posts: 1,220	This is a picture of a Colt New Army revolver. Note the shape of the grip area and compare it to the one you have. Your father may very well have never touched or altered that gun, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't worked on before he got it. I don't know when he acquired it, but it could be old enough to pre date when he was born, let alone when he wound up with it. Now, you contacted this forum in search of information about your gun. It does you little good to get upset when the information you get does not fit your preconceived idea of what you have. If you are that concerned about whether the serial number has been removed you should contact the Colt collectors forum and ask them also. FWIW, I agree that it has been refinished.

September 8, 2015, 09:19 PM	#17
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	If you aren't satisfied with the expert help here, you might go over to the Colt forum and ask for help from member "DACOLTGUY". He's Robert Best who is THE expert on the Colt New Army & Navy revolvers. He wrote the standard collectors reference book on these Colt's. http://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Double...1764525&sr=1-1 The Colt forum: http://www.coltforum.com/forums/forum.php Here's a little info on your Colt. In 1889 Colt introduced the world's first double action, swing-out cylinder revolver. This was the Colt New Navy of 1889. In 1892 the US Army also bought it and it is usually known as the Colt New Army & Navy series. Colt put the design through a rapid series of improvements including 1889, 1892, 1894, 1895, 1896, 1901, and 1903. Production ended in 1907. These were available as US military issue and commercial civilian sales guns. The military versions were chambered in .38 Long Colt, had smooth wood grips, six inch barrels, and had US Army or Navy stamps on the butt. It was the Colt New Army in .38 Long Colt that failed in the Moro War in the Philippines and led to the development of the .45 Automatic. The commercial versions were available in 3 inch, 4 1/2 inch, and 6 inch barrels. Calibers were the .38 Long Colt, and the .41 Long Colt. Very late in production they were chambered in .32-20 and .38 Special. Grips were hard black rubber with molded in checkering and Colt logos. ON ALL GUNS THE SERIAL NUMBER WAS STAMPED ON THE BOTTOM OF THE BUTT IN TWO LINES. Some guns were stolen from the military and others were legally purchased as surplus but owners were afraid the US military stamps would be thought to be a stolen military issue gun so people sometimes ground the serial numbers off. Since the butt was perfectly flat, removal of the numbers and any US stamps was easy. Because it was too easy to remove the serial number, in 1908 Colt moved serial numbers of new model revolvers to the inside of the frame under the barrel. There are other numbers on some parts. These are factory assembly numbers used in the Colt factory to keep fitted parts together during manufacture until the actual serial number was assigned and stamped on the butt. Once the actual serial number was stamped, the factory assembly number ceased to have any meaning. If the gun is in the original factory assembly condition, all the assembly numbers will match. Mis-matching numbers means parts have been replaced. Note that most of these guns were actually chambered for the obsolete .38 Long Colt. This IS NOT THE .38 SPECIAL, even though the .38 Special will chamber. If the gun is shot it should be fired with modern Cowboy shooting type .38 Long Colt ammo, or custom hand loaded light loads in .38 Special brass. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD IT BE FIRED WITH MODERN FULL POWER .38 SPECIAL AMMO. These pre-1900's gun were not made of modern steels or with modern heat treating. The gun should be treated gently. These have notoriously fragile actions that break or get out of order rather easily. Due to the complexity of the action and lack of any parts, repairs are pretty much impossible to get. As for the finish. The original guns were finished with the old Colt heat bluing process where specially prepared parts were put in steel drums and baked in temperature controlled ovens to turn them a bright blue. Some parts, like the hammer and trigger were given a different heat bluing process and these are recognized by a brilliant mirror-like light blue color. In your guns case, the finish is very obviously a much later type of blued finish done using a modern hot salts bluing process which looks much different then the original oven heat blue. Note also that the gun shows very obvious signs of haven been polished by a less than expert polisher who rounded off the edges and corners that should be sharp and left ripples in the flat surfaces. Bottom line: Your Colt New Army & Navy model has been refinished with a modern type of bluing, and the serial number has been removed from the butt. As explained above, it makes NO difference who removed it, when, or why, today, due to Federal and State laws, possession is a felony offense because under the Gun Control Act of the 1960's removal or defacement of a serial number on a gun that originally had a serial number is a crime. Again, if you're not satisfied with the information given you here by some experts, go the the link I gave to the Colt Forum and talk to THE real expert, Bob Best who is the internationally recognized expert on these Colt's.