Ethical and Moral Question: Do I continue to train this person?

[Spur0701]

I did some searches on this situation but didn't really find anything. Need a reality check.

As a favor to a family friend I've been training a young woman, she's in her late 20's. I'm retired LEO and an NRA instructor. I've put her through firearms safety and the basics of marksmanship, I have been taking her to the range about once a month for the last six months and she is progressing fairly well and I am starting to move into self defense.

About a year ago she had separated form her abusive husband and moved to our area, there are no children involved and she is financially independent from him, she's pretty intelligent and has a Bachelors in Accounting. Six months ago she got back together with her husband and he moved to this area to be with her. A few weeks ago the neighbors called the cops on them during a fight in which he was wildly drunk and he was arrested for strangulation of her (a class 6 felony where I live). She refused to bail him out, got a restraining order against him, and stated she was going to file for divorce. He finally had some family from out of state come and post bond and he has left the state.

She now says she is not going to file for divorce, will not press charges, and will try to work things out over the next two or three years. She readily admits this guy is an alcoholic, smokes weed almost every day, has numerous mental heath issues, beats her and is abuse to her when drunk, etc.... Everyone is her family and even her husband's family says she should divorce him.

My dilemma now is that do I continue to provide her training when she refuses to remove herself from an abusive dangerous situation? I don't mind helping people solve their problems but will not make other peoples problems my problems. In this specific fact pattern I feel if I continue to train her given her poor life decisions I'll just be introducing a firearm into an already bad situation and I only seeing it making the situation worse rather than better. My plan is to refuse her further training when she next ask me.

Anyone ran into something like this before?

[Skippy]

That's a tough one for sure. If you continue training and she uses a firearm in her defense - rightly or wrongly, you will certainly be called as a witness to testify and the prosecution will use all available means to discredit you and her. Including using this post as some sort of evidence.

Discontinue training and she gets hurt or killed, you'll have to live with that.

These answers only apply to YOUR consequences, regardless what she decides to do.

I'd suggest you talk with an attorney or your DA's office for guidance rather than us schmucks on the interwebs.

_______________
*I'd give right arm to be ambidextrous*

[MC 1911]

I'd walk away. Her life choices are not your problem & she doesn't seem to want to change. You've done what you could & regardless of what happens,it's not your fault.

[44 AMP]

I think the best thing for you to do is consult with legal professionals about where you stand in regard to possible legal liability.

First thing to consider is, what is your relationship to the lady? Is it "professional"?? meaning, are you being paid, or otherwise compensated for the training? OR are you just helping her "as a friend"??

That might have an effect on your legal liability.

based on what you wrote, I can see the future possibilities ranging from nothing happening thru her needing to use what you taught her to defend herself all the way to you being in court accused of having "trained her to kill"....

There is no easy answer for your questions, but finding you your legal status and what it would be if the worst possible outcome happens should be fairly straightforward.

Your moral dilemma is between you and your beliefs, and I'm not even remotely able or willing to advise you on that.

Other than to offer a time worn bit of advice, "the hard thing is often the right thing to do". You have to make your own judgement on that.

Good luck.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Spur0701

My dilemma now is that do I continue to provide her training when she refuses to remove herself from an abusive dangerous situation? I don't mind helping people solve their problems but will not make other peoples problems my problems. In this specific fact pattern I feel if I continue to train her given her poor life decisions I'll just be introducing a firearm into an already bad situation and I only seeing it making the situation worse rather than better. My plan is to refuse her further training when she next ask me.

Good plan.

Given that situation, I wouldn't walk away -- I'd run.

[Pahoo]

I think the best thing for you to do is consult with legal professionals about where you stand in regard to possible legal liability.

I too am in the camp of terminating, the training. I am protected from legal liability or so I'm told. However, I would "Document" the situation. In one of my situations, I did so by submitting a written letter to my Chief of police. If you want "Some" control over any future situation, say your nightly prayers. ...
By the way, we lost a good friend when I terminated the training ....

Be Safe !!!

[tangolima]

I would terminate because she has proven that she can't be taught.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[HiBC]

There is more to being armed than technical proficiency.
Its a lot about making good choices.

I would decline to help arm someone who consistently makes poor choices .
Life threatening poor choices.

We may feel protective of "The Damsel on Distress" . Unfortunately she seems to choose her distress.

You are probably not the person to train her out of that.

The serenity prayer is good "The things I can change vs the things I can't and the Wisdom to know the difference"

I will speculate that most communities have some resources to help victims of domestic abuse out of the situation AND help them get better at choices.

Choice making is as critical of a skill as double tapping.

Its best the problem is solved before deadly force is the answer.

The day may come when she needs to pull the trigger on the SOB.

If she can't prosecute him or divorce him, can she kill him? Or will he take the gun?

Thats a question we all have to answer before we introduce a gun to a high drama situation.

[BarryLee]

I've had friends fall into these destructive cycles and have sadly walked away from the friendships. I can't see any reason for you to have regrets about no longer offering training.

[Wag]

You can't make other people's decisions for them but you can determine how you will react.

Your plan is good. Walk away.

--Wag--

[MarkCO]

I'd agree with the collective, better to disconnect from her and cease any training.

I might give her a pamphlet from a Women's Crisis Center or Help Line.

[44 AMP]

Point her to actual licensed trainers. If she's serious about learning, she'll go, and pay the fees. If not, then not. and you're done.

[FITASC]

I'd walk away. Her life choices are not your problem & she doesn't seem to want to change. You've done what you could & regardless of what happens,it's not your fault.

This right here; she will continue to tempt fate and one day even your training will not save her.

[Pistoler0]

I think that you need to disassociate yourself from this person ASAP.

The potential legal consequences for you (even if the chance is small) make this the only rational course of action.

[Double Naught Spy]

My dilemma now is that do I continue to provide her training when she refuses to remove herself from an abusive dangerous situation?

Part of the reason for firearms and self defense instruction is for people who are in situations they feel they can't leave for whatever reason. She is a victim. You have to ask if the goal is to help her or if the goal is to sway her to your way of thinking about things. So it sounds like you want to bail because she isn't working to make her situation better by leaving it. I completely understand the frustration. If that is the route you take, then don't cut her off. She is still a victim even if she isn't making good choices. Instead, do as 44 Amp suggested and orient her to professional training. You might even do a quick local search of firearms or self defense training in your area and present her with the information to get better training for her, because after all, your skills only go so far and she would be better off with folks who do this for a living. She obviously needs help and somebody in a professional capacity may convince her of better courses of action in a manner she can better understand. In other words, they will have a fresh approach to her situation and may better educate/convince her more from a position of authority than that of a friend.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by DNS

Part of the reason for firearms and self defense instruction is for people who are in situations they feel they can't leave for whatever reason. She is a victim. You have to ask if the goal is to help her or if the goal is to sway her to your way of thinking about things. So it sounds like you want to bail because she isn't working to make her situation better by leaving it. I completely understand the frustration. If that is the route you take, then don't cut her off. She is still a victim even if she isn't making good choices.

Yes, she is a victim, but without a gun she is an unarmed victim. Yes, I know -- "But that's the point." But the rest of the equation is that she is a complicit victim. She is, whether or not you wish to acknowledge it, an enabler. There are potentially fatal consequences to introducing a firearm into such a situation.

[throttleup]

Don't walk away. Run away! From many, many cases that I have seen, if someone refuses to get away or to get out of an abusive relationship, Sooner or later they will be killed or suffer severe injuries. If they will not take the necessary steps to protect themselves, there is nothing you can do for them. Since you know the situation you need to protect yourself. You could loose everything you own, including your freedom if you continue to train her. Good luck!

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes, she is a victim, but without a gun she is an unarmed victim. Yes, I know -- "But that's the point." But the rest of the equation is that she is a complicit victim. She is, whether or not you wish to acknowledge it, an enabler. There are potentially fatal consequences to introducing a firearm into such a situation.

Let the professional handle it.

[armoredman]

"Miss, at this point, given what is going on with your life, I feel I am no longer able to provide you with the absolute best training that you really need. I have a list of professionals in your area, and what they charge for what you want, as I have other areas of my life I need to concentrate on now. I wish you the best with everything."

[dogtown tom]

Spur0701

She now says she is not going to file for divorce, will not press charges, and will try to work things out over the next two or three years.

What state are you in?
In Texas, the State of Texas is the one to file on DV, not the victim. I'm pretty sure there are other states that do the same. While the victim may refuse to testify, the local DA makes the decision to prosecute based on any evidence at hand.

She readily admits this guy is an alcoholic, smokes weed almost every day, has numerous mental heath issues, beats her and is abuse to her when drunk, etc....

Being that he is a prohibited person (marijuana user) she cannot make a firearm available where he can access it.

My dilemma now is that do I continue to provide her training when she refuses to remove herself from an abusive dangerous situation? I don't mind helping people solve their problems but will not make other peoples problems my problems. In this specific fact pattern I feel if I continue to train her given her poor life decisions I'll just be introducing a firearm into an already bad situation and I only seeing it making the situation worse rather than better. My plan is to refuse her further training when she next ask me.

IMO providing training in the safe and proper use of a firearm isn't the problem.
The problem is her having a firearm, being in a relationship with a prohibited person and continuing to place herself in harms way.

Anyone ran into something like this before?

Yep.

[MTT TL]

Also in the walk away crowd for the reasons mentioned and others.

People in abusive relationships that refuse to leave also tend to have mental illness such as anxiety disorders, PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome and depression. Training someone who could potentially have a mental illness is fraught with hazards, legal issues and potential danger to yourself and the person affected.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by MTT TL

Also in the walk away crowd for the reasons mentioned and others.

People in abusive relationships that refuse to leave also tend to have mental illness such as anxiety disorders, PTSD, Stockholm Syndrome and depression. Training someone who could potentially have a mental illness is fraught with hazards, legal issues and potential danger to yourself and the person affected.

Per the CDC, in 2020 16.5% of Americans had taken some form of prescription for mental health in the past year. 20.3% had received any form of treatment for mental health. I don’t think stigmatizing 1/5 Americans is the solution to the problem with violence in this country any more than stigmatizing those that own firearms. There are plenty of people being treated for mental illness, including veterans, that can safely own and use firearms. If you don’t want to train them that’s your call.

[MTT TL]

I don’t think stigmatizing 1/5 Americans is the solution to the problem with violence in this country any more than stigmatizing those that own firearms. There are plenty of people being treated for mental illness, including veterans, that can safely own and use firearms. If you don’t want to train them that’s your call.

Price of tea in China and all that, 2020 was a pretty rough year for American and The World's mental health and there hasn't been much bounce back. There was a 20% rise in scripts in the US. Scripts also don't appear to be helping at all. The US still has the highest suicide and murder rates of any high income country. People who are depressed appear to commit suicide at much higher rates than people who are not depressed. Feel free to fact check that.

None of which was my point, which you seem to have convoluted about. My point was more along the lines of; I think if Chris Kyle could do it all over again he would probably do things differently.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by MTT TL

Price of tea in China and all that, 2020 was a pretty rough year for American and The World's mental health and there hasn't been much bounce back. There was a 20% rise in scripts in the US. Scripts also don't appear to be helping at all. The US still has the highest suicide and murder rates of any high income country. People who are depressed appear to commit suicide at much higher rates than people who are not depressed. Feel free to fact check that.

None of which was my point, which you seem to have convoluted about. My point was more along the lines of; I think if Chris Kyle could do it all over again he would probably do things differently.

Given that you brought up mental illness first, no this isn’t the price of tea in China. 2020 was a rough year, and for many it hasn’t gotten much better. A significant percentage of Americans were being treated for mental illness before then as well.

My point remains that just because a person is being treated for mental illness, doesn’t meant they’re going to shoot you, ala Chris Kyle (and to my knowledge Kyle had taken a number of veterans shooting before that without being shot). If you want to not train people because they are potentially experiencing a mental illness, then that remains your prerogative as I said.

[MTT TL]

Known of which was stigmatizing.