Fire forming brass

[Toddco]

I have a new .243 and am looking for a short cut to fire form brass. I have heard of some people using bullseye, starting at about 1/2 case capacity and working up from there. Has anyone out there done anything similar? Also it is cold up here in Alberta now and does anyone know how the bullseye or other powders will react in the cold. I would have to go to a range to do the fire forming as i do not have access to a shop in the country where i could charge cases and walk out the door to fire them.

Thanks,

Toddco

[Jack Hester]

Here's an outstanding article on fire-forming:

http://www.6mmbr.com/260AIforming.html

I've got quite a bit of .22-250 brass that I need to fire-form to my A.I. chamber, and have a real problem of burning up my bullets just to do so. Think I'm going to follow this fellow's technique and see what happens.

Jack

[FrankenMauser]

I suggest using some bulk bullets and Trail Boss.
The powder is incapable of reaching maximum pressures (too bulky), but still reaches a high enough peak pressure to fill out the chamber. With a heavy bullet, you can hold that peak pressure just a bit longer.
The only data available for the .243 also happens to be 100gr data:

Bullet Weight (Gr.)	Manufacturer	Powder	Bullet Diam.	C.O.L.	Grs.	Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure	Grs.	Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure
100 GR. SPR BTSP 	    IMR  	   Trail Boss   .243"  	2.650" 	8.0 	1045   	     27,300 CUP        15.3 	1603 	        39,100 CUP

What method were you referring to, with Bullseye? Powder only? Powder+filler+wax plug?

[Crankylove]

What brass are you using to form the .243?

[5R milspec]

hey if you are just forming it to a 243 or 243 Ackley there is no need to waste powder like you will be doing.just load them and see what the load is going to do.but if you are going to form it to a case size that is alot bigger then use a pistol powder for the first forming.the only time I use pistol powder is when I am blowing out a 300H-H to a 300 Ackley.but when I am blowing out a 300 WEATHERBY I just load them and see whats going to happen with that load.most loads will give you a good starting place when forming brass for the first time.but if you want to just use pistol powder then fill a case 3/4 of the way and put a pice of papper towel in the neck and chamber it then pull the trigger.but hey this is just what I do.

[sundog]

Since you have a new barrel it makes sense to start working a load, maybe with inexpensive bulk pack bullets, and break in the barrel while working your brass. Makes sense to me, anyway.

[F. Guffey]

A new 243 W and want to fire form brass? 243 Winchester brass and commercial ammo is formed when sized, no fire forming necessary. Purchase new commercial ammo and fire to get once fired cases, if you want to blow the case out to remove taper and or move the shoulder forward .125 and change the shoulder to 40 degree, fire form, everything else I form when sizing as in 30/06 to 35 Whelen, 338/06, 8/06, 7.68x53 BM. 308 W, 257 Roberts, when the shoulder of the 30/06 is too short to compensate for chamber length from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber I use 280 Remington cases with a forward shoulder that is .051 thousands beyond the shoulder length of the 30/06, so I form first then fire.

Temperature? Not likely you are going to know the temperature of the day the ammo will be used, I have never found it necessary to develop a load on a hot day that was going to be used on a cold day, but if I did find it necessary I would load the ammo, place it it a refrigerator/freezer, remove the ammo from cold storage and transport it to the range in a cooler. Developing ammo on a cold day for use on a hot day could get a reloader in trouble if temperature is not considered, it is not like ice fishing when some serious and dedicated fishermen go to extremes to keep their worms warm,

Cold ammo and freezing, moisture is never a consideration when reloading, it is possible the small amount of atmosphere inside the case contains moisture, the moisture could form ice crystals when frozen, this could be a good thing, when moisture is heated to a very high temperature super heated steam is created.

I can not worry about the temperature or moisture, what I load shoots in the heat and cold, when it is cold I do not add powder, with heat, there was a time when heat alone was enough to cook off a round when chambered, so heat improves efficiency, cold reduced efficiency.

Develop a load in the heat, go back to the range (with cold ammo) in the cold and test again, I do not believe an ammo cozy or rifle cozy is going to catch on but it would be a way to keep your rifle and bullets warm.

F. Guffey

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

As Crazylove ask, What Brass are you fire forming in your 243???????????

If it is .243 brass, there is no fireforming needed.

If you are using a 243 Ackley Improved, and providing it was properly chambered, any properly loaded .243 cartridge will go into the chamber as a standard size .243 and come out as a fireformed 243AI.

There is no need to use reduced loads and no danger involved in firing full power factory or properly loaded reloads.

Same thing with shooting a 300H&H cartridge in a 300 Weatherby chamber.

It goes in as a 300H&H and comes out after firing, fireformed into a 300 Weatherby.

The difference here is, the H&H to weatherby head spaces on the belt of the cartridge while the 243 to 243AI, again if fired in a properly reamed AI chamber will head space where the neck meets the shoulder.

Same thing when fireforming 250Savage to 250 AI, 30/06 to 30/06AI, 257 Roberts to 257AI etc. etc. etc.

If on the other hand, you were shooting a "wildcat" or a "Ackely Improved" rifle which was improperly chambered ( the reamer was run in too far) there will most likely be some forming needed before firing full power loads.

For example, say you are going to load for a 30 Gibbs. The Gibbs, unlike the Ackely Improved cartridge has the shoulder moved well forward of the standard 30/06 position and therefore a standard 06 case will have greatly excessive head space if fired in the Gibbs chamber.

An easy way to make the 30 Gibbs case is to run a 35 Whelan case through a 30 Gibbs die which will leave enough false shoulder on the neck to allow fireforming.

The 30 Gibbs die should be adjusted so that the cases have a crush fit against the false shoulder when chambered.

Another way would be to expand a 06 case neck before running it into the Gibbs die, which would give the same result as the 35 caliber case above.

I personally seated bullets excessively long in 30/06 cases while forming to the 30 Gibbs, which when chambered pushed the bullets into the lands and held the head space until firing at which time the case was fireformed to a 30 Gibbs.

A some what reduced load was used in this case to allow for the potential pressure spike from the bullet being forced into the lands.

Having bullets in contact with the lands during firing, does not in and of itself equate to excessive pressures, PROVIDING the loads are "worked up" with the bullets in that position.

However, to seat a bullet into the lands on a load worked up with the bullets seated with clearence from the lands, will increase pressures and possibly do so to the point of danger!

To fireform a factory load such as 30/06 to 30 Gibbs by pulling the bullet and then reseating the bullet long and into the lands with the origional factory powder charge, is very likely to create dangerious pressures. Don't do it!!

So, feed us a bit more info, as you can see there are a lot of directions your question could take us and not nearly enough info to give you the correct answer.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol Coot

[Toddco]

I am trying to fire form new brass to my new chamber without bullets. For example, i have a friend who knows his chamber size and it is approx. 8 thou longer than the new nosler brass he just purchased, so i was wondering if anyone else has done any fire forming in this manner.

Thanks,

Todd

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

It sounds like you are using 243 brass in a standard 243 chamber.

If that is correct, load and fire using normal safety measures and don't worry about it.

The first shot will do the fireforming to your chamber AND unless your rifle is of bench rest quality you will never see the difference between that "fireforming" first shot and any which are to follow.

If your chamber is a bit longer or bigger, reamed out to the larger side of manufacturing tolerences, your brass life will be extended by not over sizing between firings.

For example if your firearms chamber is as above, and you happen to get a set of dies which are on the small side of the tolerences, and you "full length" size your brass after each firing, you could end up with brass only lasting 3 - 5 firings.

Been there and done that!

Personally, since I learned may lesson years back, I never set up a full length set of dies as per instructions, always sizing only enough to have relyable chambering.

IF After another firing or so, you find the cases are tight when closing the action, tweak the die down just enough to again obtain relyable chambering.

You may need to do this die "tweaking" 2 or 3 times, but you WILL come to the optimum setting for the combination of your rifle, dies, and press.

Change any one of those three and you are very likely no longer at the optimum point for longest brass life and load consistancy with your loads.

Have a happy new year and Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol Coot.

[Toddco]

As stated earlier, i am trying to form cases to my chamber WITHOUT bullets. They are in short supply here and hard to come by. I only resize with redding neck sizer dies which only slightly bump the shoulder back, so as bullets, primers, powders, cases, etc are in short supply i want to get to the most accurate cases i can as swiftly and economically as possible, thus the idea of fire forming cases before putting bullets in them.

[Sport45]

If the case is too short from the base to the shoulder fire forming will not help. It will only stretch the case just like any other firing that has been mentioned above.

It sounds like you want to move the shoulder up without stretching the case?? If so you might be able to put a larger expander button (6.5mm) in your sizing die. Make sure it is below the neck area of the die and then size as usual. Now you'll have a .243 case with a 6.5mm neck. Now you can take the expander button out of your die and back the die out a couple full turns in the press. Size the case again and you'll have a small shoulder ahead of the case shoulder. Try this case in your rifle and adjust the sizing die down until the bolt will just close. Trim to appropriate length then load and shoot as usual. You'll have a fire formed case with the shoulder blown out to your chamber dimensions.

If you want to save the bullet in the last step I find 5gr of Titegroup or 231 under a case full of cornmeal with the neck plugged with bar soap will blow a .30-30 case out to a straight-walled .375win in one step. I've never tried to fire form a bottleneck cartridge so YMMV.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well Toddco, I thought I had replied to you after your last post, and apparently it didn't make it.

Anyway, Unless you are shooting a bench rest quality rifle where that rifle always shoots competition level one hole groups, and I mean ALWAYS and not sometimes, all your effort will likely be a waste of time, primers, powder and possibly even corn meal.

You will simply not be able to tell the difference in groups if you fireform new cases to your chamber or if you don't!

If you have not already worked up loads for your rifle, you will need to do so to get optimum groups from your combination of rifle, dies, brass, primers, powder etc..

Very likely the first of your test groups, providing you start at lower powder charges and work your way towards the maximum recommended charges, will not give you the groups you desire, BUT THEY WILL FIREFORM YOUR CASES TO YOUR CHAMBER!


So take your time and effort and spend it where it will do you some good.

To take a group of components and randomly or even after much study, pick a combination of case, powder, primer and bullet which will give you optimum groups the first time around, is only slightly more likely then you winning a million dollar lottery.

Therefore, you will need to expend effort, powder, primers and bullets to find that optimum load or even an Ok load for that matter, so don't waste your time in pre-fireforming your cases before the tests begin as by the time the needed test are done your cases will all be formed to your chamber.

If on the otherhand, you have already worked up loads for your rifle and do not need to start at that point with this batch of cases, you will still not be able to relyably tell the difference unless your rifle and loads are of the quality spoken of above.

Then if this group of new cases are not from the same brand and lot # as the cases used in your already tested and proven loads, you are still back to square one.

A series of good test loads, carefully assembled and fired from a good bench under reasonable weather conditions will be far more productive then the efforts needed to fire form 243 cases to a 243 chamber.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol Coot