Order of Fit: slide, frame, barrel & bushing

[Shorts]

I think I'll attack the rear slide with files and paper. I've gotten pretty comfortable using them and I'd rather go slow and steady. Every stroke is an opportunity to get it as perfect as I can get it. Unlike the Dremel, if I breathe wrong I could miff up

I did order Commander sights. When placing the order I was aware that, unlike fixed plain sights, I cannot file to fit a tritium dot. So, I contacted Novak and made sure I was ordering the correct height. Again, we won't know until they are installed

[Dave Sample]

I think that the sights will be close enough for Government work. My concern now is the ejector and if it were me, I would install a 38/9mm ejector before you re finish the gun. There is a difference and IF I can I will post a couple of pictures. It depends on what is in the parts bins. I amy have one of each to show you the difference.
Shorts! We are closer than we have ever been!

[Shorts]

Cool, I wasn't sure if there was a difference.

Here is a pic of where things stand on this one.





Edit: Today I polished up the sear, hammer and disconnector and got things a little smoother on the pull. That really makes a difference you can feel to have those surfaces like glass. And all safety checks passed

[Dave Sample]

I haven't forgotten the pictures. I will get them up sometime today. Looks like you need to relieve that ejector underneath a little but it is hard to tell from your pictures and the angle of the lens. I have a 38 Super here that has a 38/9mm ejector in it. 20,000 and still going strong!

Test Fire , here we come!

[Shorts]

I think so too, it is leaving a scratch on the case as it slides from underneath into the chamber. I wasn't sure if I should go ahead and do that or what lol I'm stillin inda like a little kid asking for permission, "Can I....?"

[Dave Sample]

Here is a stock 45 ACP extended ejector on a Commander frame similar to yours.



Here is a 38/9mm extended ejector installed on a race gun.



Side view of the 45 ACP.



Hope these give you an idea of how it it inset toward the middle to accommodate the smaller rim.





Side view of the 38/9mm extended ejector.

[Shorts]

Dave, good pics. Though I don't think I have any more room to schooch over the ejector with a specific 9mm unit. I already had to file the inside edge down on this one so that it would fit inside the ejector tunnel on the slide. The only thing I can see that has room is that top inside corner where it is rounded off. I'm still hoping right now that it is long enough. I'd really rather not change it out. I have visions of legs breaking off in the frame, but if I need to, then I need to.

[Dave Sample]

These pictures are Caspian Lower Ends. One is a Commander size and one is a 38 Super Lower end. I know that the early Colt Commanders used a 38 Super ejector because at the time, there were no extended 45 ACP ejectors. They came later. Notice the off-set cut for the hammer on the inside so it will get closer to the smaller rim. I am not sure your slide will handle it, either. I do not know who made the slide, but it should have a 38/9mm ejector tunnel.

Let us wait and see what happens when you shoot it. It is too soon to worry about it and they are easy to change, with a little help from your friends.

[Shorts]

I went out to the range today, fired a little 22/45 for warmup, then switched to the project thing (man it needs a name). I only loaded one round in for a few times, just for safety sake, regardless the gun safety functioned fine at home. I was also a bit nervous about blowing it up in my hand, so yes, I flinched mighty powerful the first shot, so much so I laughed and didn't even shoot. BTW, the trigger can be a little lighter.

I took 100rds of Fed American Eagle 9mm 115gr. FMJ, but only fired 36 due to concern about headspace. The target was about 7yrds out. The mainspring is the standard Officer's which I believe is 23#. The recoil spring is 16#.

I have no sights on the gun, so this was pretty much point it at the target and pull the trigger. I did have a few shots that I have no idea where they hit (after closer looks they were on the paper, just in the black lines)

The results:

1. I could see hint of case bulge. This isn't good.




2. Not all FP hits were centered. I'd like to get them closer if I can. Edit: Checking the relation of the FP hit to the extractor mark, the hits were off center to the right.

3. There is evidence of the FP rebounding after the primer strike on about 1/2 of the cases. The cap has the big indention, as well as a tiny needle point hit on the edge of the indention.




4. The extractor needs more tension. Most times if I closed the slide on a loaded magazine, the ejection of that round did not happen. The edge of the extractor hook just slipped over the case rim. This left the empty case in the chamber and the slide jammed as the next round was trying to move forward and out of the mag. When I could, I tried to load the mag on a closed slide, then rack and load. There was also some reside on the base right beneath the immediate area where the extractor sat. What is that?




5. The shot groups were low and left. Some groups were actually tighter than I thought, and some shots were pretty flyaway. I adjusted my aim every few rounds when I loaded a mag. I held steady on the table for a rest for several rounds.

6. The gun never failed to feed, except when a case got stuck in the chamber due to the extractor not pulling it out.

7. I had a few ejected cases walk up my arm, one or two came back to my chest/face, the rest were ejected to 4-5oclock, varying anywhere from 2-5' away. But they were in a consistent area as I picked up all my brass.

8. The brass mouth was in good shape after ejection. It was clearing the slide withoutgetting pinched anywhere.

I'm going to break the gun down and see what things look like. I'll get some pics of things up in a bit. Overall, I'm pleased that the gun functioned. It seems to me that these results will take a minor adjustments, ten I'll test again.

[Shorts]

After breaking down the gun, I got pics of the contact areas.

[Handy]

How is getting the chamber reamed going to help? That bulged case looks like it came out of a too-big chamber already.

[Shorts]

Alright, then I used the wrong term

Anything else? Replace the barrel then?

[Jim Watson]

Be not dismayed, you are doing well. No doubt Dave and Nick will be along but here is a shooter's perspective:

1. Brass bulge: Try a different brand. I poked through a box of range pickup brass and the Federal was bulged as you illustrate and the others weren't. Different guns, different chambers, different brass, I don't know. But don't leap to conclusions.

2. Centered firing pin hits: If the firing pin is hitting low, centering it will reduce locking lug engagement. Not good. If it is hitting high, centering it will increase locking lug engagement. Sounds good but might affect feeding.
If it is off to one side, it is due to barrel or slide construction and not much to be done about it. Don't worry about it, the NRA once found that a slightly offcenter firing pin hit gave better accuracy, all else being equal.

3. Firing pin rebound: Hanged if I know.

4. Extractor: If the first round is not extracting you probably need more extractor tension OR better extractor hook fit. If the others are extracting, it is probably not off too far. The real gunsmiths here can tell you where you ought to have contact... and not.

5. Groups? Without sights? Forget it, install sights as soon as convenient.

6. Feeding: Feeds hardball, great. If for defense, try some hollowpoints, eventualy. Remington is closest to hardball shape, either standard or Golden Sabre.

7. The occasional wild ejection will decrease as you improve extractor fit from No 4 above. But it still might be somewhat wild, shorter guns scatter their empties more.

8. Un-dented brass: I take that as a sign that the extractor, ejector, and recoil spring are not too far off spec.

[Handy]

A heavier firing pin spring should cure the firing pin problem.

Of course, a lighter recoil spring may also help.

[Dave Sample]

Well, Well, Well.
OK. Let's get on with it, Shorts.

The extractor should be 38/9mm. They are different and IF ( I have them around here) I can get a few pictures of them , I will do so.

You need a 9mm38/ejector.

Your barrel has a very large chamber and perhaps that is why it was for sale.

The reason the shells were not ejected is because of the 45 ACP ejector.

The 23 lb mainspring is not out of line in a 45 ACP Commander, but I would use a 19-20-21 to see if they work OK. I do not know what is on that officer's lower end as they are different.

Your recoil spring seems to be close in poundage.

Empty brass shape is determined by the size of the chamber, not by who makes it. The brass re-sizes itself when it is fired to that shape. I would scrap the barrel and get a good one. Ejectoin is a three part deal. The port size, the ejector tweaks, and the extractor hook tuning and the exrtactor tension. Magazines also affect ejection.

Your work is cut out for you now, Shorts. You are just begining the fun stuff of Pistolsmithing. I am here for you and am a Fed Ex away and if it gets out of your ability range, I will jump in and help you to what ever degree you need me for.

I have a case of 9mm here for test fires.

[Shorts]

Alrighty, once and for all, the only used parts are on the lower. Those are the parts that came with the stock Colt Officer's Model and yes, it is a .45. Everything else has been converted to 9mm.

The upper is all new and consists of the following parts...in 9mm.

Slide: Essex 9mm Commander, Essex
Barrel: Randall 9mm, Ebay
Bushing: King's #303, Brownell's
Extractor: Ed Brown 9mm/.38super, Brownell's
Firing Pin: Ed Brown 9mm/.39super, Brownell's
Recoil Spring: Colt .45/.38super Comm., Brownell's
Recoil Spring Plug: Comm, Brownell's
Recoil Spring Guide: Ed Brown Comm, Brownell's
Magazine: Metal Form Officers 9mm 8rd, Brownell's
Sights: Novak front tritium, plain rear, Novaks

I even picked up a new Wilson 9mm/.38super slide stop but I didn't use it yet as the Metalform Mag catches the original slide stop and locks back last shot. I realize my project is looked at as completely low budget and a waste of good time. That's fine, but it's mine and I'm learning and don't regret any decisions I've made with it. I realize I took a chance on the Randall barrel. I knew it from the very beginning. But I figured what the heck, I'll get a new one if it doesn't work but I have to see for myself.

Ok, got that out of my system.

As for the ejector, I don't understand how that can be my ejection problem when the gun ejected fine aside from the times the extractor did not pull the case from the chamber. The extractor is a 9mm unit. Is the extractor hook suppose to be able to move at all when it is installed?

As for the chamber, what is the acceptable max. diameter over a case?

I decided to install my sights. I started this project to get the full affect and it wouldn't have quite been the same if I didn't. Not that I don't appreciate the offer, I am very grateful, Dave. But I guess as a kinda right of passage, I sorta wanted and needed to do it for myself. I did keeping hearing in my head from prior correspndence, "...this guy messed up everything..." and kept picturing myself in his shoes

So I got the Novaks installed this morning. I had to do some filing to get the dovetails opened up a little bit, but they sit well. I won't tack them down until after the slide is refinished and the gun is sighted in and in working condition. The rear sight doesn't sit flush with the rear of the slide, but it doesn't bother me none. I'll leave it be. I've gotta do work back there anyway, so if it does haunt me, I might try to get it flush, but really, eh.



Don't have a clue if their on there straight, but the main idea was getting them fit to the slide. How do you get them straight anyway? Do you test fire from bench rest at the range while adjusting them for each shot?

[Dave Sample]

If the ejector post misses the case rim, it does not eject. The extractor pulls the case out and then against the tip of the ejector and then spins the empty case out of the port.
An Essex Top End.

Glad you have the right firing pin, spring, extractor and that they are the ones you should have.

The gun looks nice with the sights on it. I drift them in with brass punches and "Smear Fit" them so there is no light coming through the dove tail. Red Loc-Tite will keep them in place later when you have sighted it in. The rear sight has a small screw that can be relaced with a large one later if need be.

Shorts! I am glad you are doing this project without any help except a little advice once in a while. I believe in what you are doing and have taught many, many people to do what you are doing at home in front of a PC. I was concerned about you breaking a little atomic bulb and I am glad you did a good job yourself.

You have done very well so far. Keep up the good work! It will all come together at the end of the day.

[Shorts]

I got some numbers maybe that might help.

Breechface measures .422"




The mouth of the chamber is at .395"




I scribed the line of the barrel throat on a spent case. The bulge is above this line all the way around the case.




I picked up a box or three of PMC and Winchester to test out.

[Jim Watson]

Comparison measurements:

Colt chamber mouth diameter .392"
SA chamber mouth diameter .391"
(Vernier caliper measurement, actual diameter a little larger due to flats on caliper blades.)

Colt slide face width below extractor .424"
SA slide face width below extractor .417"

Colt and SA brass exposure about as high up the sidewall as you scribe, but not as wide. Your old Randall barrel has a barrel ramp like a .45 wadcutter gun, my Colt and SA have hardball ramps which are much narrower.

I don't think you have anything to worry about on case expansion; my Federal 9mm is .385" just ahead of the extractor groove and tapering from there. It is GOING to expand in any usual chamber. Maybe their brass has less springback. Other brands I have measure the same or not over .003" larger, but don't know their temper.

[AZta2guy]

Shorts, I think I have thought of a name for your new cco. How about short's nightmare nine for now. then once you have it all dialed in how about shorts beauty, or shorts black beauty??? Just thinking while I type. you aer sdtill me hero. Keep up the awsome work and reporting.

Aim straight and have fun
Jon

[Handy]

Shorts,

While I'm sure it is not the ideal way to do things, I'm thinking that the chamber dimensions causing the bulge might be a non-issue IF:
1. Accuracy is decent.
2. Extraction is good.

But the extraction issue makes me wonder if the case bulging might be your source of extraction problems. On the otherhand, it doesn't look like the extractor was exactly clawing up that case rim, so a tension/adjustment thing is probably more likely.


If it isn't causing the above issues, I don't really see what harm the bulging case is really going to do. It won't blow the web out of the case, and can't damage the chamber, so maybe it isn't worth worrying about.

[Dave Sample]

The extraction issue is a simple one. 9mm/38 Supers need the correct ejector. While the 45 ACP extended ejector is trying , it is not hitting the case rim in some instances. It is a $15.00 part, it is pinned in and will come out fairly easily. If the slide is made right, it will work. Until you install it, your CCO 9mm will be "Iffy".

The case bulges do not bother me , either and I don't think they relate to the extraction problem. I don't have a 9mm barrel around here anymore, but I do have a 38 Super. It is similar to your Randall barrel at the rear end (relieved for the extractor hook) but was made by Briley many years ago when they first came out with ramped barrels. Mine is ramped ,so I can't help you with photos. I can see on your fired cases where the 45 ejector is just barely touching the outer edge of the rim.

Jon is right about the nightmare of creating this small shooter with the parts you have chosen. It WILL turn into your dream gun at some point in time. We just are not quite there yet.

Keep up the good work, Hey! If it were easy, everyone would be doing it!

[Shorts]

I went out to the range again this morning. I took 50rds WWB and 50 PMC and my combobulation of a gun. Last night I retensioned the extractor to bench test specs so I was confident things would go well.

And things did go well. Everything extracted and ejected. I still had those one or two in a mag that walked up my arm or bounce off the bill of my cap, but I'll get that worked out and I don't see it as a problem. I did have about 3 fail to feeds with the WWB. The round just dove and stuck on the frame feed ramp. One was fed with a rerack, the others were cleared by dropping the mag, reseating the round in the mag and reinserting again. Looking at the rounds, the WWB bullet was slightly more pointed than the PMC, which had a rounder shape, although not by much. None of the PMCs had any FTF or FTE. IN FACT, I HAD NO FAIL TO EJECTS THE WHOLE SESSION. I did however have the mag follow lip walk over the slide stop a time or three to produce no last shot lockback. But that will take a slide stop switch to a 9mm unit (that I have sitting in my parts box). If the slide still won't lock back, it won't be the end of the world, I can count.

Overall I am pleased. The sights were great and the gun shot very well to poa when they stayed put. Of course, they were not tacked down, so the rear sight always floated left....and all my shots floated left. I hadn't tightened the screw in the rear, no biggie. But I took it as a good sign that I could see my poi move with the sights.

As for the case bulges, all the cases today looked just like the Federal cases. No bulges were excessive in looking like a blowout, they were just expanded to the chamber.

Again, I'll break down the gun for cleaning and inspection.

Edit: Ok guys, I really think yall are blowing the ejection "issue" out of proportion. Believe me, I'd be in a different mood of the range day was less than impressive. I don't see how a 9mm ejector will fit under that tunnel, as I have already stated and shown. I had to file this .45 ejector to fit. If anything, it can be longer. But it isn't a problem. If it is, then I will change it out.

FINE, MY PARTS SUCK. It's not a high dollar shooter, but that doesn't mean it won't run. Parts brand didn't seem to be an issue when I started building the project, I don't know why it is now.

Now, again, I do not see how the ejector is the problem on ejection if the extractor hook did not pull the case out of the chamber. Doesn't that mean you just take a step back and make sure the tension on the extractor is correct before moving on? Keeping it simple, right?

4. The extractor needs more tension. Most times if I closed the slide on a loaded magazine, the ejection of that round did not happen. The edge of the extractor hook just slipped over the case rim. This left the empty case in the chamber and the slide jammed as the next round was trying to move forward and out of the mag.

[Dean Taylor]

Shorts while it is nice to have the slide lock back it is not absolutely necessary. It just requires different gu n handling. I have a Open Race 1911 set up to never lock open - I will not go into the reasons why. I would put off dealing with that until other issues are settled even though this is not too hard to approach.

Dean
[email protected]
410-952-7848

[Skyviking]

Where did you get the Officers Model frame? Judging from the photos, it looks like it's been in a fire.