Winchester large flash hole.

alloy · December 31, 2009, 07:05 AM

Lately I have been finding a few .45 auto cases with a massive flash hole, also a friend gave me about 50 of the cases. He called the ammo Winclean I think.

Has anyone found enough of a difference in velocities to where these cases shouldn't be loaded along with my other cases using the same loads?

I segregate normal Winchester cases in this caliber and am wondering if these go in the Win pile to be used, or the everything else pile. It's too cold and snowy to set up the chrony but there is a pile in the tumbler...so I'm askin'.

jaguarxk120 · December 31, 2009, 09:39 AM

Those case's use a primer formula that has no lead(lead styphnate) in it. So for some reason they need a larger primer hole in the case.
Generally used for indoor shooting.
Another way of having green ammunition, lead free bullets???

**Unclenick** · December 31, 2009, 04:24 PM

That's correct. They are usually stamped "NT" on the head, which stands for Non-Toxic. The diazodinitrophenol (DDNP) priming compound explodes more rapidly than the lead styphnate priming mix in standard primers, and the gas can't get out of a standard size flash hole fast enough to prevent the mix blowing the primer back and swelling its head or causing a gas leak. So they open the hole up more.

Everyone I've talked to who has reloaded those cases using standard primers has said they can't tell any difference between their performance and that of standard size flash hole. Not in the .45 ACP at target and standard ball pressures, anyway. A rifle might be touchier about it? A +P loading might be touchier about it? I'd have to play with them in my pressure test setup to see?

PCJim · December 31, 2009, 06:11 PM

I think you'll find that these 45acp "NT" brass cases require a small pistol primer, not the large primer usually used for 45acp. Although Winchester originally stated the brass could not be reloaded (they may still state that), I have read that they are reloadable with your usual recipes, but to expect appx 30fps less velocity due to the smaller primer.

I personally have not yet reloaded those that I've come across. They're being kept for when my son comes to town and goes to their bubba range with his friends - not much of that brass returns back home.

alloy · December 31, 2009, 06:51 PM

No, these are large pistol primed, unlike the Federal NT which is small. Left a bunch of that on the ground yesterday. Actually the Win has the same headstamp as regular Winchester ammo. No NT marking whatsoever. But the flash hole is at least an 1/8". Monstrous. Should at least give some good ignition.

SQUAREKNOT · December 31, 2009, 10:19 PM

I ran into this last year. This year I bought 3000 once fired brass and a LOT of the Federal stuff has the larger flash hole.
I was using W231 and found that the pressure rose much faster.
NOW-what I also remember -I had a bad batch of W231 and was using Winchester LP primers that are for standard OR magnum loads. I can't remember if I was using that bad batch of W231 at the same time.
SO-I am going to have to dig through the snow, all 25" of it and work up my loads with a new batch of powder and 3 different primer manufacturers
AGAIN!! because I failed to keep good records.
I remember reading in several places that they are safe to shoot but not at
max loads.
BTW-these are also NOT NT cases and use large pistol primers.

Malamute · January 1, 2010, 01:10 AM

A friend had a large commercial reloading operation. He said when they first noticed this type brass coming in, he called Winchester, and was told they could load it right along with the rest with no changes.

Randy 1911 · January 1, 2010, 01:41 AM

I have loaded it in the past and noticed no difference in any of the test I did. I ran them through the chrono and did accuracy testing. After testing I just put them in the brass bucket with the rest.

kraigwy · January 1, 2010, 12:02 PM

I dont know about the NT markings, never used that brass.

But, something one should look for when picking up unknown brass on the range (something I don't do).

There are several reasons for enlarging the flash hole on brass. One reason, I use to make blanks for our Officer Survial training. Blanks are dangerous, especially when older more senior cops are involve. They dont (for the most part) dont take it serious and want to play making normal blanks dangerous.

The blanks I made were nothing more the primer in empty cases. Without modification the primer will back out jaming the revolver (and I'm talking revolvers here). To eliminate this I would drill out the primer pocket to 1/8 inch. If these cases were to be re-loaded normally they could cause increase dangerous presures.

Another reason for increasing the flash hole is if one is using wax bullets. Again without modifiying the flash hole, the primer will back out.

Also I modify the flash hole in my Black Powder Cart, cases (45-70, 44-90 etc) to get better ignition. Again shooting normal smokeless powder loads in these cases can cause dangerous pressures.

I haven't see any loading data for NT or "green" cases so I dont think I would fool with them. I dont like range brass because I dont know how many times the cases have been loaded and under what conditions.

But thats just me. Brass is cheap, guns (or medical bills) arnt.

December 31, 2009, 09:39 AM	#2
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Those case's use a primer formula that has no lead(lead styphnate) in it. So for some reason they need a larger primer hole in the case. Generally used for indoor shooting. Another way of having green ammunition, lead free bullets??? Last edited by jaguarxk120; December 31, 2009 at 10:56 AM.

December 31, 2009, 04:24 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	That's correct. They are usually stamped "NT" on the head, which stands for Non-Toxic. The diazodinitrophenol (DDNP) priming compound explodes more rapidly than the lead styphnate priming mix in standard primers, and the gas can't get out of a standard size flash hole fast enough to prevent the mix blowing the primer back and swelling its head or causing a gas leak. So they open the hole up more. Everyone I've talked to who has reloaded those cases using standard primers has said they can't tell any difference between their performance and that of standard size flash hole. Not in the .45 ACP at target and standard ball pressures, anyway. A rifle might be touchier about it? A +P loading might be touchier about it? I'd have to play with them in my pressure test setup to see? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 1, 2010, 01:10 AM	#7
Malamute Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2004 Location: Rocky Mts Posts: 859	A friend had a large commercial reloading operation. He said when they first noticed this type brass coming in, he called Winchester, and was told they could load it right along with the rest with no changes. __________________ "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

January 1, 2010, 01:41 AM	#8
Randy 1911 Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2009 Location: Western Arkansas Posts: 273	I have loaded it in the past and noticed no difference in any of the test I did. I ran them through the chrono and did accuracy testing. After testing I just put them in the brass bucket with the rest. __________________ Been Reloading 27 Years NRA Member Member Old Fort Gun Club www.ofgc.org

January 1, 2010, 12:02 PM	#9
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I dont know about the NT markings, never used that brass. But, something one should look for when picking up unknown brass on the range (something I don't do). There are several reasons for enlarging the flash hole on brass. One reason, I use to make blanks for our Officer Survial training. Blanks are dangerous, especially when older more senior cops are involve. They dont (for the most part) dont take it serious and want to play making normal blanks dangerous. The blanks I made were nothing more the primer in empty cases. Without modification the primer will back out jaming the revolver (and I'm talking revolvers here). To eliminate this I would drill out the primer pocket to 1/8 inch. If these cases were to be re-loaded normally they could cause increase dangerous presures. Another reason for increasing the flash hole is if one is using wax bullets. Again without modifiying the flash hole, the primer will back out. Also I modify the flash hole in my Black Powder Cart, cases (45-70, 44-90 etc) to get better ignition. Again shooting normal smokeless powder loads in these cases can cause dangerous pressures. I haven't see any loading data for NT or "green" cases so I dont think I would fool with them. I dont like range brass because I dont know how many times the cases have been loaded and under what conditions. But thats just me. Brass is cheap, guns (or medical bills) arnt. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

December 31, 2009, 06:11 PM	#4
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	I think you'll find that these 45acp "NT" brass cases require a small pistol primer, not the large primer usually used for 45acp. Although Winchester originally stated the brass could not be reloaded (they may still state that), I have read that they are reloadable with your usual recipes, but to expect appx 30fps less velocity due to the smaller primer. I personally have not yet reloaded those that I've come across. They're being kept for when my son comes to town and goes to their bubba range with his friends - not much of that brass returns back home.

December 31, 2009, 10:19 PM	#6
SQUAREKNOT Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Posts: 263	I ran into this last year. This year I bought 3000 once fired brass and a LOT of the Federal stuff has the larger flash hole. I was using W231 and found that the pressure rose much faster. NOW-what I also remember -I had a bad batch of W231 and was using Winchester LP primers that are for standard OR magnum loads. I can't remember if I was using that bad batch of W231 at the same time. SO-I am going to have to dig through the snow, all 25" of it and work up my loads with a new batch of powder and 3 different primer manufacturers AGAIN!! because I failed to keep good records. I remember reading in several places that they are safe to shoot but not at max loads. BTW-these are also NOT NT cases and use large pistol primers.