.44 black powder for defense? - Page 3

AdmiralB · December 4, 2009, 04:02 AM

Quote:

BP is also hydroscopic (draws water out of the air somewhat)

Real BP isn't hygroscopic. The fired residue is, and some of the substitutes are, but not the real thing.

mykeal · December 4, 2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Real BP isn't hygroscopic.

Yes, it is. It's just not as much so as the combustion byproducts. The saturation level is much lower.

OLDPUPPYMAX · December 5, 2009, 05:02 PM

Enjoy your BP pistols and Uberti Army pistols, just as I do. They are a hell of a lot of fun and shoot straight as can be. But for DEFENSE, buy a Glock.

Shootrj2003 · December 16, 2009, 10:13 AM

the good thing about a black powder arm for defence is you get a smoke screen at the same time![LOL]

Andy Griffith · December 16, 2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Enjoy your BP pistols and Uberti Army pistols, just as I do. They are a hell of a lot of fun and shoot straight as can be. But for DEFENSE, buy a Glock.

I thought tupperware was for leftovers in the refrigerator?

Self-loading pistols are just a fad of the times, and that Borchardt feller was just the initiator of the fad.

Did I mention that the self-contained metallic cartridge is also a fad?

Fingers McGee · December 16, 2009, 12:24 PM

[QUOTES] self-loading pistols are just a fad of the times, and that Borchardt feller was just the initiator of the fad.

Did I mention that the self-contained metallic cartridge is also a fad?
[/QUOTE]

+1

Ironheart · January 3, 2010, 10:11 PM

static

Raider2000 · January 4, 2010, 05:28 AM

Ummm what are you talking about Ironheart?

simonkenton · January 4, 2010, 04:15 PM

???

Rachen · January 14, 2010, 03:50 PM

Whoah, this thread has just entered the event horizon of a parallel-universe conduit somewhere in Delta Quadrant.

"Engineer! Fire up the pulse plasma thrusters to full yield! Get the ship out of this zone, now!"

Anyways, back on topic here. I rely on my two Pietta 1858's for defense anywhere. I trust them even more than I trust the new things that use nitro. I think that both Elmer Keith and Montana legend Ed McGivern used BP guns to achieve their world records in aerial target shooting. Mr. Keith adopted a .44 Magnum only much later on. All of his previous competitions were done with a .36 cap and ball. That was in the 1920s and 30s I believe.

robhof · January 14, 2010, 07:49 PM

I keep my stainless ROA loaded in my gunroom when I'm at home and would feel well armed against any intruder. When the ammo shortage was peaking, it became my most used gun and I'm now quite proficient with it and with 2 spare cylinders, I was shooting 18 round groups betwen loadings.

mousegun · January 14, 2010, 08:49 PM

How did you go about getting
spare cylinders for your ROA?

Just curious.

mykeal · January 14, 2010, 11:10 PM

Send it back to Ruger along with lots and lots of money.

mousegun · January 15, 2010, 11:38 AM

Hmmm...
I picked up a spare online a while back. Fits perfectly.
Was told that Ruger won't fit a new cylinder to the ROA
without the old one sent in. Thought about "forgetting" the
cylinder at the range and sending the gun back for a refit.
Didn't seem exactly honest, though.

mykeal · January 15, 2010, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Was told that Ruger won't fit a new cylinder to the ROA
without the old one sent in. Thought about "forgetting" the
cylinder at the range and sending the gun back for a refit.
Didn't seem exactly honest, though.

You were told correctly - they won't. And they're expensive. You need not worry about sending in the gun with the cylinder installed; they'll send it back refurbished and the new cylinder fitted. Don't know why you'd send it in without the cylinder, but it's your choice.

mousegun · January 15, 2010, 06:47 PM

Guess I missed making my own point.

I was told by a lady at Ruger that they would not install a spare cylinder in the ROA or send a replacement for a lost or damaged cylinder without sending in the gun. She said specifically that if a gun was received for cylinder replacement they would keep the old cylinder after fitting the new. That was why I connived to send in a cylinderless gun at the time -- about four years ago.

Liability issues were the reason I was given for this policy.
Bless all the lovely lawyers.

Obviously the policy was not in effect for your ROA.

Gator_Weiss · January 15, 2010, 11:20 PM

Any attacker that gets blasted in the chest or belly with a black powder round, sure as hell isnt going to go too far. In fact, the attacker will probably be on his ass right where he was shot, praying for an ambulance to come rapidly.

A .44 caliber round ball with a cloud of burned black powder behind it is a horrendously terrible thing for anyone to run into! For close range work inside of a home or at a moderate distance outside, it will most probably be a one-stop-shot. Heavy, soft lead, slow moving, bone shattering, meat grinding impact is the trademark of the round ball.

The conical probably cuts and clips more than it smashes. But lets be honest; do you really think any attacker is going to know the difference if a conical or a round ball enters his chest or stomach? The conical will probably maintain more energy and velocity for an extended distance shot. It might even fly slightly straighter [but only to a slight degree] than the roundball.

Both the conical or the round ball will stop an attacker with a solid torso hit at short range. That is why for hundreds of years people have been throwing conical and roundball at their enemies out of black powder operated machinery; because it sure as hell works!

Cartridges facilitate rapid loading. You dont always need a cartridge gun to stop an attacker. Black powder guns work.

One question, will black powder store for long term inside of a revolver cylinder without damaging the inside of the cylinder?

Many pieces kept for defensive purposes probably have a tendency to be left in a desk drawer, or under a bed, or under a mattress, or in the glovebox or console of a car or truck for very long extended periods of time. Will the black powder store inside of the chamber for very long term without damaging the interior surfaces, flash hole, etc, and will a percussion cap sitting on top of a nipple for an extended period of time begin to corrode the nipple and flash hole?

Where we do get an advantage with a cartridge is that primer, flash hole, and powder are all stored in the cartridge case, which can be disposable, and they dont contact the interior surfaces of the weapon until they are detonated. The cartridge case - among other things - acts as a storage container and physical barrier between the propellant components and the interior surfacaes of the weapon.

Can we leave a black powder piece loaded for long time periods?

mykeal · January 15, 2010, 11:35 PM

Quote:

One question, will black powder store for long term inside of a revolver cylinder without damaging the inside of the cylinder?...Will the black powder store inside of the chamber for very long term without damaging the interior surfaces, flash hole, etc,

Yes. The ingredients in black powder (which is technically a mixture) are all very stable and do not react with iron or steel. It will absorb moisture but retains it's characteristics without degrading if dried out.

Quote:

and will a percussion cap sitting on top of a nipple for an extended period of time begin to corrode the nipple and flash hole?

Depends on when the cap was made. Actually, any cap you can buy today will not corrode the nipple over the long term.

Quote:

Where we do get an advantage with a cartridge is that primer, flash hole, and powder are all stored in the cartridge case, which can be disposable, and they dont contact the interior surfaces of the weapon until they are detonated. The cartridge case - among other things - acts as a storage container and physical barrier between the propellant components and the interior surfacaes of the weapon.

There would be an advantage if any of those components reacted with the gun material, but they don't, so there's no advantage.

Quote:

Can we leave a black powder piece loaded for long time periods?

Absolutely. There are many anecdotes about Civil War era guns being found that were still able to fire their loads. The only reason not to leave your black powder gun loaded for an extended period is that you really have an obligation to be proficient with any weapon you intend to use, so you should, in fact, must, practice with it frequently. Loading it up and leaving it lay around is called negligence, not with respect to the gun, but with respect to one's shooting skills with that particular gun.

redman107 · January 15, 2010, 11:37 PM

I keep my uberti 1858 remmy loaded all the time in my house for self dense. I usually shoot it every two or three weeks but have kept it loaded for 3 or 4 months at a time with no misfires. I have modern firearms in my home but this pistol is so dead on accurate that for me it seems like a fine weapon of choice to defend my home with. I like the fact you can order these fine weapons and have them shipped through the mail without going through any kind of background check.

bamaranger · January 16, 2010, 02:43 AM

Writer Ed Sanow prepared an article for Guns & Ammo a few years back in which he shot C & B revs into ballistic gelatin. The round ball was the distinct winner in the cavity test, the conical in penetration.

Sanow then compared the wound cavity's to modern smokeless calibers and loads. Very cool article. If there's an interest I'll try and dig it up if nobody else has it at their finger tips.

BTW , shocker....Wild Bill's .36 roundball was the equal of a hot .380 hollowpoint, if you believe gelatin. And the .44's were head and shoulders above the .36 by a wide margin. The big .44's, dragoons and Walkers with their hefty powder charges, were formidable, only recently superceded by modern magnums. (so says Sanow)

Raider2000 · January 16, 2010, 06:51 AM

I agree with mykeal 100%.
Like I said earlier in this thread, I usually keep one of my C&B revolvers loaded not just as a HD weapon but because I tend to shoot mine a lot more than I do my modern firearms & I'll take one with me when I check traps or do some scouting on the club property.

Shoot as often as you can to be proficient with them.
Keep them clean, dry & loaded properly.
These C&B Revolvers can in fact be as reliable as a modern firearm.

I'd like to see that Article by Ed Sanow

simonkenton · January 16, 2010, 09:17 AM

bamaranger I would like to see that article by Ed Sanow.

bamaranger · January 16, 2010, 06:51 PM

Here's the best I can do now on the article. I found it in the second magazine binder I looked in!

I initially advised Guns and Ammo but was mistaken. (hey, gimmie a break, its from 11 yrs ago)

It was HANDGUNs Feb 98 issue. I have the entire article but not sure how to post it.

Synopsis: the big .44 's yielded 85-87% one shot stops
the army .44's came in at 67
the Ruger at 79
a army sheriff at 59
All these were w/ roundballs and 30-60 grs of 3F

He goes on to equate the big 44's w/ 41 mag or hot 44 spl.
It's a thorough write up, based off the gelatin studies he and others were conductng at the time. There are also comparisons for .31's (30%, .22 lrhp)and .36's (.380 JHP, 59%)

I'm not sure how to take this any further on line. Kind of a dinosaur tech wise. I could photocopy and mail or something I guess .

I also have an article from the 1974Gun Digest, where Rick HACKER shot PPC type targets against the clock for a handling/speed evaluation w/ c & b's.

mykeal · January 16, 2010, 09:49 PM

Actually you can't take it any further online. A magazine article is copyrighted, so you cannot reproduce it without permission. You CAN quote it with attribution, as you have correctly done, but to copy it as a facsimile and publish that copy you need written permission.

Gator_Weiss · January 16, 2010, 11:54 PM

Something to remember. When a bullet hits a bone, the character of the projectile and impact changes immediately. Gelatin is not much of a comparison for a human body.

Anyone hit center to high in the chest area with any .36 or .44 or larger ball, will most likely go down. Especially if the projectile collides with bone on the way in. The ball will flatten out and expand out and continue the journey on into the chest cavity, most probably with a wider diameter and pushing a bunch of bone splinters and fragments into the cavity.

Gelatin testing or not, we all KNOW that a chest hit with a slow moving big bore projectile spells instant critical condition for anyone on the receiving end. 300 feet per second is believed to be the minimum it will take to stop or kill with a chest hit at close range. 800 feet per second certainly stops or kills. Anything over that really, really, stops or kills. I wouldnt worry about gelatin testing. There is plenty of gun there to do the job.

December 5, 2009, 05:02 PM	#53
OLDPUPPYMAX Member Join Date: October 29, 2009 Posts: 20	For denense? Enjoy your BP pistols and Uberti Army pistols, just as I do. They are a hell of a lot of fun and shoot straight as can be. But for DEFENSE, buy a Glock.

December 16, 2009, 12:24 PM	#56
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	[QUOTES] self-loading pistols are just a fad of the times, and that Borchardt feller was just the initiator of the fad. Did I mention that the self-contained metallic cartridge is also a fad? [/QUOTE] +1 __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

January 3, 2010, 10:11 PM	#57
Ironheart Junior Member Join Date: January 3, 2010 Posts: 6	Did he live or die under the tree ? static Last edited by 4V50 Gary; January 16, 2010 at 12:42 PM. Reason: The moderator has decided that Ironheat should be quiet

January 14, 2010, 07:49 PM	#61
robhof Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 712	robhof I keep my stainless ROA loaded in my gunroom when I'm at home and would feel well armed against any intruder. When the ammo shortage was peaking, it became my most used gun and I'm now quite proficient with it and with 2 spare cylinders, I was shooting 18 round groups betwen loadings.

January 14, 2010, 08:49 PM	#62
mousegun Member Join Date: January 28, 2006 Posts: 42	How did you go about getting spare cylinders for your ROA? Just curious. __________________ (o)(-) ----0000--(..)--0000----

December 16, 2009, 10:13 AM	#54
Shootrj2003 Member Join Date: August 12, 2007 Posts: 25	the good thing about a black powder arm for defence is you get a smoke screen at the same time![LOL]

January 4, 2010, 05:28 AM	#58
Raider2000 Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 719	Ummm what are you talking about Ironheart?

January 4, 2010, 04:15 PM	#59
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	???

January 14, 2010, 03:50 PM	#60
Rachen Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2006 Location: Weekend cowboy Posts: 542	Whoah, this thread has just entered the event horizon of a parallel-universe conduit somewhere in Delta Quadrant. "Engineer! Fire up the pulse plasma thrusters to full yield! Get the ship out of this zone, now!" Anyways, back on topic here. I rely on my two Pietta 1858's for defense anywhere. I trust them even more than I trust the new things that use nitro. I think that both Elmer Keith and Montana legend Ed McGivern used BP guns to achieve their world records in aerial target shooting. Mr. Keith adopted a .44 Magnum only much later on. All of his previous competitions were done with a .36 cap and ball. That was in the 1920s and 30s I believe.

January 14, 2010, 11:10 PM	#63
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Send it back to Ruger along with lots and lots of money.

January 15, 2010, 11:38 AM	#64
mousegun Member Join Date: January 28, 2006 Posts: 42	Hmmm... I picked up a spare online a while back. Fits perfectly. Was told that Ruger won't fit a new cylinder to the ROA without the old one sent in. Thought about "forgetting" the cylinder at the range and sending the gun back for a refit. Didn't seem exactly honest, though. __________________ (o)(-) ----0000--(..)--0000----

January 15, 2010, 06:47 PM	#66
mousegun Member Join Date: January 28, 2006 Posts: 42	Guess I missed making my own point. I was told by a lady at Ruger that they would not install a spare cylinder in the ROA or send a replacement for a lost or damaged cylinder without sending in the gun. She said specifically that if a gun was received for cylinder replacement they would keep the old cylinder after fitting the new. That was why I connived to send in a cylinderless gun at the time -- about four years ago. Liability issues were the reason I was given for this policy. Bless all the lovely lawyers. Obviously the policy was not in effect for your ROA. __________________ (o)(-) ----0000--(..)--0000----

January 15, 2010, 11:20 PM	#67
Gator_Weiss Member Join Date: December 12, 2009 Location: Southwestern USA Posts: 40	Anyone shot in the shest with a black powder round is in a world of hurt! Any attacker that gets blasted in the chest or belly with a black powder round, sure as hell isnt going to go too far. In fact, the attacker will probably be on his ass right where he was shot, praying for an ambulance to come rapidly. A .44 caliber round ball with a cloud of burned black powder behind it is a horrendously terrible thing for anyone to run into! For close range work inside of a home or at a moderate distance outside, it will most probably be a one-stop-shot. Heavy, soft lead, slow moving, bone shattering, meat grinding impact is the trademark of the round ball. The conical probably cuts and clips more than it smashes. But lets be honest; do you really think any attacker is going to know the difference if a conical or a round ball enters his chest or stomach? The conical will probably maintain more energy and velocity for an extended distance shot. It might even fly slightly straighter [but only to a slight degree] than the roundball. Both the conical or the round ball will stop an attacker with a solid torso hit at short range. That is why for hundreds of years people have been throwing conical and roundball at their enemies out of black powder operated machinery; because it sure as hell works! Cartridges facilitate rapid loading. You dont always need a cartridge gun to stop an attacker. Black powder guns work. One question, will black powder store for long term inside of a revolver cylinder without damaging the inside of the cylinder? Many pieces kept for defensive purposes probably have a tendency to be left in a desk drawer, or under a bed, or under a mattress, or in the glovebox or console of a car or truck for very long extended periods of time. Will the black powder store inside of the chamber for very long term without damaging the interior surfaces, flash hole, etc, and will a percussion cap sitting on top of a nipple for an extended period of time begin to corrode the nipple and flash hole? Where we do get an advantage with a cartridge is that primer, flash hole, and powder are all stored in the cartridge case, which can be disposable, and they dont contact the interior surfaces of the weapon until they are detonated. The cartridge case - among other things - acts as a storage container and physical barrier between the propellant components and the interior surfacaes of the weapon. Can we leave a black powder piece loaded for long time periods?

January 15, 2010, 11:37 PM	#69
redman107 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2009 Posts: 11	I keep my uberti 1858 remmy loaded all the time in my house for self dense. I usually shoot it every two or three weeks but have kept it loaded for 3 or 4 months at a time with no misfires. I have modern firearms in my home but this pistol is so dead on accurate that for me it seems like a fine weapon of choice to defend my home with. I like the fact you can order these fine weapons and have them shipped through the mail without going through any kind of background check.

January 16, 2010, 02:43 AM	#70
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,313	cap & ball stopping power Writer Ed Sanow prepared an article for Guns & Ammo a few years back in which he shot C & B revs into ballistic gelatin. The round ball was the distinct winner in the cavity test, the conical in penetration. Sanow then compared the wound cavity's to modern smokeless calibers and loads. Very cool article. If there's an interest I'll try and dig it up if nobody else has it at their finger tips. BTW , shocker....Wild Bill's .36 roundball was the equal of a hot .380 hollowpoint, if you believe gelatin. And the .44's were head and shoulders above the .36 by a wide margin. The big .44's, dragoons and Walkers with their hefty powder charges, were formidable, only recently superceded by modern magnums. (so says Sanow)

January 16, 2010, 06:51 AM	#71
Raider2000 Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 719	I agree with mykeal 100%. Like I said earlier in this thread, I usually keep one of my C&B revolvers loaded not just as a HD weapon but because I tend to shoot mine a lot more than I do my modern firearms & I'll take one with me when I check traps or do some scouting on the club property. Shoot as often as you can to be proficient with them. Keep them clean, dry & loaded properly. These C&B Revolvers can in fact be as reliable as a modern firearm. I'd like to see that Article by Ed Sanow

January 16, 2010, 09:17 AM	#72
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	bamaranger I would like to see that article by Ed Sanow.

January 16, 2010, 06:51 PM	#73
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,313	c & B stopping power article Here's the best I can do now on the article. I found it in the second magazine binder I looked in! I initially advised Guns and Ammo but was mistaken. (hey, gimmie a break, its from 11 yrs ago) It was HANDGUNs Feb 98 issue. I have the entire article but not sure how to post it. Synopsis: the big .44 's yielded 85-87% one shot stops the army .44's came in at 67 the Ruger at 79 a army sheriff at 59 All these were w/ roundballs and 30-60 grs of 3F He goes on to equate the big 44's w/ 41 mag or hot 44 spl. It's a thorough write up, based off the gelatin studies he and others were conductng at the time. There are also comparisons for .31's (30%, .22 lrhp)and .36's (.380 JHP, 59%) I'm not sure how to take this any further on line. Kind of a dinosaur tech wise. I could photocopy and mail or something I guess . I also have an article from the 1974Gun Digest, where Rick HACKER shot PPC type targets against the clock for a handling/speed evaluation w/ c & b's.

January 16, 2010, 09:49 PM	#74
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Actually you can't take it any further online. A magazine article is copyrighted, so you cannot reproduce it without permission. You CAN quote it with attribution, as you have correctly done, but to copy it as a facsimile and publish that copy you need written permission.

January 16, 2010, 11:54 PM	#75
Gator_Weiss Member Join Date: December 12, 2009 Location: Southwestern USA Posts: 40	Gelatin has no bones, no cartilage, no fiberous tissue, and no nerves or organs. Something to remember. When a bullet hits a bone, the character of the projectile and impact changes immediately. Gelatin is not much of a comparison for a human body. Anyone hit center to high in the chest area with any .36 or .44 or larger ball, will most likely go down. Especially if the projectile collides with bone on the way in. The ball will flatten out and expand out and continue the journey on into the chest cavity, most probably with a wider diameter and pushing a bunch of bone splinters and fragments into the cavity. Gelatin testing or not, we all KNOW that a chest hit with a slow moving big bore projectile spells instant critical condition for anyone on the receiving end. 300 feet per second is believed to be the minimum it will take to stop or kill with a chest hit at close range. 800 feet per second certainly stops or kills. Anything over that really, really, stops or kills. I wouldnt worry about gelatin testing. There is plenty of gun there to do the job.