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Old October 9, 2023, 03:05 PM   #26
Schlitz 45
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I like to shoot 1/2 size steel silhouettes at 50/75/100 yards & try for bullseye shooting at 25 yards using my Dan Wesson revolvers & will try it with a snubbie for the challenge to see if I can hit anything at distance. Like my wadcutters for the paper & 158's loaded with H110 for the steel. Always fun to see how I do & I'm definitely the biggest variable in the equation. Haven't tried shooting paper at any long distances, may have to give it a shot, or six


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Old October 11, 2023, 12:33 PM   #27
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Possibly.



Possibly the load will not be as accurate as other loads in every gun.

Possibly your guns just don't shoot that load as well as they shoot other loads.



Possibly the lower velocity is allowing wind drift to be a more significant factor at longer ranges creating a greater dispersal of impact points (larger group).



The best method of finding out which variable is having the greatest impact on your results is to experiment, changing only ONE variable at a time.







When you say "held over" do you mean putting your aiming point two feet above the target??



IF so, you're handicapping yourself. I use a different method of aiming at long range. Happy to explain my method, if you're interested.
"When you say "held over" do you mean putting your aiming point two feet above the target??

IF so, you're handicapping yourself. I use a different method of aiming at long range. Happy to explain my method, if you're interested."


Yes I noticed the bullets were striking short of the target I could see it kicking up sand when the bullets hit the ground.
So I decided to hold high and was able to hit it 3 out of 5 times with the two and a quarter inch j frame.

When the 357's hit the sand it looks like a meteor strike.

What is your secret method of sight alignment and sight picture?
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Old October 11, 2023, 12:36 PM   #28
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I like to shoot 1/2 size steel silhouettes at 50/75/100 yards & try for bullseye shooting at 25 yards using my Dan Wesson revolvers & will try it with a snubbie for the challenge to see if I can hit anything at distance. Like my wadcutters for the paper & 158's loaded with H110 for the steel. Always fun to see how I do & I'm definitely the biggest variable in the equation. Haven't tried shooting paper at any long distances, may have to give it a shot, or six


Fantastic grouping with the Kimber k6. What kind of different loads have you shot with that gun? I have been resisting the temptation to purchase one.
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Old October 11, 2023, 02:20 PM   #29
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Rb, I have my plinking wadcutter loads, steel target 158gr plated flat points, & 158 HP defense loads worked up for it, all use 357 brass. The Kimber Control Core grip covers & cushions the backstrap making full on magnum loads easy on the hand to shoot. It has THE BEST double action trigger pull of any revolver I have or have tried. I carry it on occasion & feel very comfortable with it. Try one & see what you think.
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Old October 11, 2023, 04:30 PM   #30
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What is your secret method of sight alignment and sight picture?
Its no secret, its something Elmer Keith wrote about generations ago. Just seems to be something few people today think of doing.

Its simply a variation of the 6 o'clock hold.

With the usual 6 o'clock hold, you align the sights so the top of the front sight is level with the top edge of the rear sight, and centered in the notch, with your target on the top of the front sight.

Now, for long range shooting, you just raise the front sight above the rear sight, keeping your target on top of the front sight.

How much front sight you need to hold up is something you have to experiment to determine, for the range and load you are shooting. This method works with everything, and does not cover the target with either the sight or the muzzle of the gun the way aiming normally but above the target does.

You get a constant picture of where your front sight is, in relation to the target (and so can keep it centered) and the elevated front sight compensates for bullet drop.

Think of your sight picture forming an upside down "T" with the crossbar being the top edge of the rear sight and the upright is your front sight, with the target on the top.

Elmer went so far as to have King's Gunworks install gold bars on the front sight to give him consistent reference points on how much sight to hold up.

This method works, but takes trial and error to determine exactly how much sight to hold up, and be able to do it repeatedly. Some guns make this easier than others.

Shooting my 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, with the load I use, at 200 yards, its not hard, because the amount I need to hold up (for that gun, load and range) is right at the bottom of the slope of the front sight, where the blade goes from being vertical to sloping upwards.

I have used this method with numerous guns, it works. With a Browning Hi Power 9mm, the amount of front "sight" I had to use to get on at 200 was a point on the slide about 1/2 inch behind the front sight. But I still had a full and complete view of the target and the top of the front sight right under it.

The exact amount you will need to hold up to get hits at the 80yd range you are shooting, will be different, with each different load, and each different gun, but the process works for everything.

Its not secret, its not magic, anyone can do it with some practice. I read Keith telling about how to do it over 50 years ago, and tried it. It works. After some practice, I got better at it, and have been using it for long range pistol shooting ever since.

Next time you go shooting steel at long range, try this, start with your normal sight picture, sights level, target on top, shoot and see how far below the target the bullet hits. Then, raise the front sight so about half of it is above the top of the rear sight with your target on top. Shoot and see how much closer to the target your bullet hits. If its still below the target, raise the front sight up a little more and shoot again. Repeat this until you walk your hits onto the target.

It is a better method for getting hits at long range (with iron sights) than aiming above your target and covering it with the muzzle.

Works with fixed sights, too. If you are shooting with adjustable sights, DON'T change your usual sight setting (unless you want to dedicate the gun to long range shooting) just raise the front sight and learn how much to use.

Kind of the elevation version of "Kentucky windage".

Try it, you'll see.
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Old October 12, 2023, 09:57 AM   #31
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Classic

Good on Ya 44amp, you described old Elmer's method to a T for hitting at long range with a sixgun. It works with any iron sights.
The classics, they never go out of style or go away. They are often taught by a gray haired fella, showing the tacti cool kids how it is done.
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Old October 12, 2023, 12:36 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Its no secret, its something Elmer Keith wrote about generations ago. Just seems to be something few people today think of doing.



Its simply a variation of the 6 o'clock hold.



With the usual 6 o'clock hold, you align the sights so the top of the front sight is level with the top edge of the rear sight, and centered in the notch, with your target on the top of the front sight.



Now, for long range shooting, you just raise the front sight above the rear sight, keeping your target on top of the front sight.



How much front sight you need to hold up is something you have to experiment to determine, for the range and load you are shooting. This method works with everything, and does not cover the target with either the sight or the muzzle of the gun the way aiming normally but above the target does.



You get a constant picture of where your front sight is, in relation to the target (and so can keep it centered) and the elevated front sight compensates for bullet drop.



Think of your sight picture forming an upside down "T" with the crossbar being the top edge of the rear sight and the upright is your front sight, with the target on the top.



Elmer went so far as to have King's Gunworks install gold bars on the front sight to give him consistent reference points on how much sight to hold up.



This method works, but takes trial and error to determine exactly how much sight to hold up, and be able to do it repeatedly. Some guns make this easier than others.



Shooting my 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, with the load I use, at 200 yards, its not hard, because the amount I need to hold up (for that gun, load and range) is right at the bottom of the slope of the front sight, where the blade goes from being vertical to sloping upwards.



I have used this method with numerous guns, it works. With a Browning Hi Power 9mm, the amount of front "sight" I had to use to get on at 200 was a point on the slide about 1/2 inch behind the front sight. But I still had a full and complete view of the target and the top of the front sight right under it.



The exact amount you will need to hold up to get hits at the 80yd range you are shooting, will be different, with each different load, and each different gun, but the process works for everything.



Its not secret, its not magic, anyone can do it with some practice. I read Keith telling about how to do it over 50 years ago, and tried it. It works. After some practice, I got better at it, and have been using it for long range pistol shooting ever since.



Next time you go shooting steel at long range, try this, start with your normal sight picture, sights level, target on top, shoot and see how far below the target the bullet hits. Then, raise the front sight so about half of it is above the top of the rear sight with your target on top. Shoot and see how much closer to the target your bullet hits. If its still below the target, raise the front sight up a little more and shoot again. Repeat this until you walk your hits onto the target.



It is a better method for getting hits at long range (with iron sights) than aiming above your target and covering it with the muzzle.



Works with fixed sights, too. If you are shooting with adjustable sights, DON'T change your usual sight setting (unless you want to dedicate the gun to long range shooting) just raise the front sight and learn how much to use.



Kind of the elevation version of "Kentucky windage".



Try it, you'll see.
Thank you for sharing multiple times in this thread 44AMP!! I think that I'm going to have to try those live fire exercises next time I shoot.

Several years ago I tried something similar. I filled in some of the tiny steps on the front sight of the Magnum snubby with model car paint and a toothpick-guess and checked- so I could know exactly how much to offset the front sight with a particular load at a specific distance. Eventually my solution was to purchase better target guns as truth be told the Smith & Wesson model 60 is a fantastic inside the waistband concealed carry gun, it is terrible for actual range use especially with heavy bullet mass and powder charge loads. Interestingly I did find that 357 MAG 20 grains h110 and 110 grain jhp bullets shot to exactly the same point of aim as 38 SPL 148 grain Remington hollow base flush seated wadcutters with 3 grains of Winchester 231 at 20 yards. I have since quit painting my front sights white. I've painted the front sights black on several hand guns since I've been shooting at paper plates and I find that the difference in contrast reduces eye strain and difficulty for me maintaining sight picture/sight alignment.

The rear sight is bottomed out completely on both of my Ruger Blackhawks. I think that means my front sight is not tall enough. I have zeroed the 6.5 inch 357 Blackhawk at 50 yards and at 80 I was still aiming dead center to strike the steel plate. I like how flat shooting that gun is!!!

Also had some fun shooting at one of those orange plastic targets that supposed to jump when you hit it. The deep hollow point 357 blue bullets cut out holes like it had been hit with a hole puncher. Also shot at it with a 22 long rifle, the 22s were getting stuck in the orange plastic.
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Old October 12, 2023, 01:14 PM   #33
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The rear sight is bottomed out completely on both of my Ruger Blackhawks. I think that means my front sight is not tall enough.
Maybe.

Maybe the load you are shooting is just so far outside the usual that its outside the sight's range of adjustment.

Or, maybe you just look through your sights differently than other people do.

It is seldom mentioned, some people say its not a real thing, or "can't happen", but in my experience, it does, or something does that is explainable that way.

My Father used the center hold. IT worked for him, if he wanted to hit the center of the target (standard bull, normal range) he aimed so the top of his front sight was in the middle of the target.

For whatever reason, when I did that with his guns, I hit the top of the bull. For ME to hit the center with his sight setting, I had to aim at the bottom of the bullseye (6 o'clock hold).

His "explanation" for that was that I looked through the sights differently than he did.

another example of this phenomenon, friend of mine and I, shooting .30 cal bolt guns, scoped, 100yds approx, field positions (not off a bench or rested), to make a game, we traded rifles every other shot. Turned out that we were both, consistently 1/2" off point of aim, shooting the other guys rifle.  

IF possible, have someone else shoot your gun(s) and see where they hit with your sight settings. Might be an eyeopener! Might not be.

can't say just where the rear sight on my Blackhawk is, in its up/down range, other than I know its not bottomed or topped out.
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Old October 12, 2023, 02:07 PM   #34
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If you are shooting cast lead out of a 357 magnum try HP38 or W231. About 5.5 grains will be above 1000fps with a lot less flash and blast than with something like 296. Accuracy is usually very good.
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Old October 12, 2023, 06:55 PM   #35
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How much of a difference in point of impact can be made due to the difference in case length and the resultant different jump to reach the throats in the cylinder?

I have a nagging suspicion that 357 starline cases group better than 38 special Remington Peters cases when shot out of my Ruger Blackhawk.

I feel good about 5 grains of bullseye with 125 grain powder coated hollow point loaded in 357 brass. Then I can make a reduction in the powder charge to load them in 38 special brass and compare on Target.

Also...These light loads might end up being very fun to shoot in the Ruger 77/357.
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Old October 12, 2023, 10:54 PM   #36
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How much of a difference in point of impact can be made due to the difference in case length and the resultant different jump to reach the throats in the cylinder?
how much difference do you think there is, anyway???

using the data from my old Lyman manual the difference in max case length between .38 Special and .357 Magnum cases is 0.14" The often quoted number is 0.135" which I think is what the cases are actually made to, to stay under the listed max.

HOWEVER, this is not the difference between the listed max length of the loaded rounds.

The difference in max loaded length spec is only 0.04"

SO, if you load the same bullet to max loaded length in both the .357 and the .38 Special, the Special will only be 0.04" shorter.

As far as I know, no one has ever proven that small a difference makes a measurable difference down range.
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Old October 13, 2023, 12:19 AM   #37
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Guns recoil in your hand before the bullet leaves the muzzle. It takes longer for slower bullets to leave the barrel so slower loads exit at a higher angle and hit higher on target for a given sight setting. If you are hitting way too low, slow it down! If way too high, speed it up. I don't think case length alone does diddly to change point of impact. Just my 2cents.

231 can safely push loads out of a 357 carbine to above 1300fps. Took a coyote with my 231 swc plinking load a few years back. It's a bit slower powder than bullseye suitable for many calibers. Unique, AA7, AA9 and AA4100 are good alternatives to 296 out of magnum pistol. In a rifle if you want top speeds, 296 is best but even in a 6 inch barrel faster medium speed powders like Blue Dot actually tend to produce higher speeds with lower charge weights. Accuracy will vary by load with 296 giving near optimum load density while 231 is more position sensitive. Blue dot fills cases well and many like it for 357 as a versatile powder.

Last edited by rc; October 13, 2023 at 12:35 AM.
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Old October 13, 2023, 01:27 AM   #38
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231 can safely push loads out of a 357 carbine to above 1300fps.
Which is still a light load for a carbine.

2400 will push a 125 to 2200fps and 158s to the 1800s in a Marlin carbine. Max loads, yes, but safe.
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Old October 13, 2023, 09:52 AM   #39
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Yep, but with cast lead, speed is not your friend. 1300s is plenty powerful for plinking and close range varmint hunting. 231 is an economical and accurate powder in many calibers. Of course 2400 is better for gas checked loads pushed well over 1500fps from a rifle. Winchester 125gr JHP's will melt in flight when pushed to 2000fps. Just a Spatter of lead at 50. 231 can push soft the soft 125 JHPs to around 1500fps where they can still hold together.
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Old October 13, 2023, 12:01 PM   #40
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Winchester 125gr JHP's will melt in flight when pushed to 2000fps.
No, they don't, sorry.

JHP = JACKETED Hollow Point

pure lead, and soft lead alloys, swaged or cast and speed don't play well together.

Hard lead alloys (cast) can be driven faster, with the right alloy and proper sizing the 1800s can be reached and with gas checks as much as 2200fps has been done without serious leading or bullets melting.

Every alloy has an upper end "speed limit" with pure and very soft lead alloys, that's black powder speeds. Hard cast slugs can be driven much faster but they also have an upper end speed limit, and its well below that of copper jackets.

Jacketed bullets have their own upper end speed limits as well. Not because of the material they are made from, but because of the way they are constructed.

Jacketed bullets that are designed to expand, are built to expand within a certain velocity range. Too slow and they don't expand, too fast and they expand violently, and too much, appearing to "blow up".

The .38cal (.357) 125gr JHP is a classic example of this.
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Old October 13, 2023, 06:57 PM   #41
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44 if you think a flat profile Winchester soft core jacketed 357 mag pistol bullet driven close to 2000 fps can hold up to the friction from the air as loads approach 2000fps, try some for yourself. They may group at 25 yards, but I know what I observed with those particular bullets at 50. A spattering of silver lead residue on my target paper and I didn't miss. They were fine out of a revolver at around 1450fps. Hornady XTPs are probably a lot tougher but at 2000fps a JSP is a better choice for a 357 mag rifle. Just my 2 cents.
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Old October 13, 2023, 07:53 PM   #42
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I used to shoot lots of 110 grain JHP @17.5 grains of 2400 or @22 grains of H110/W296 through a 4" Ruger SP101 and 2.25" 60-9.

Those loadings are fire crackers.

Also used 20gr./H110 and 17gr/2400 powder charges with the Remington 125 Grain semi jacket scalloped hollow point. Those were the most accurate out of my bolt action 357. I may revisit those loads this winter.

I wish that my 77/357 and Ruger Blackhawk had a 1 and 7 twist like how my Ruger American 300 BLACKOUT does. I could load 3 grains of fast pistol powder in 357 MAG brass with 124 grain powder coated cast lead hollow points and not have to worry about case setback because 357MAG is a rimmed cartridge.

Is 300 BLK a ballistically optimized higher performance 357 MAGNUM?
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Old October 13, 2023, 09:55 PM   #43
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44 if you think a flat profile Winchester soft core jacketed 357 mag pistol bullet driven close to 2000 fps can hold up to the friction from the air as loads approach 2000fps, try some for yourself.

I guess I'll have to. The bullets I used were Remingtons and they held up fine to 100yds launched from a Marlin carbine at 2200fps.

Until they hit something. (anything) THEN, they blew up

Simple point of fact, not every bullet is ok at every speed.

The problem is that 125gr JHPs are optimized for self defense at the speeds found in most defensive handgun barrel lengths, and the carbine adds some 500fps give or take and that goes well past the upper limit of the bullet's controlled expansion velocity range.

JSP 125s might do better, I don't know. I do know that 158s, driven into the 1800fps range do much better penetrating and holding together.

Quote:
Is 300 BLK a ballistically optimized higher performance 357 MAGNUM?
Apples and oranges. The .300 Blackout is a rimless bottle necked .30 caliber 55,000 psi cartridge. The .357 is a rimmed strait wall .35 caliber 35,000 psi cartridge.

ONE load with a 125gr bullet from a carbine length barrel happens to have the same approximate velocity. Other than that, they have little in common
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Old October 14, 2023, 11:05 AM   #44
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44 the challenge will be finding 125gr winchester JHP component bullets. You can't order them for $80/1000 anymore. I used to load jacketed 357 for well under $7 a box but now you'd be hard pressed to load 357 for less than $20/50. Cast lead can still be loaded for around $11 and less if you cast your own. At today's prices, Speer and Hornady seem to have better deals than Remington and Winchester on Jacketed bullets.
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Old October 14, 2023, 10:37 PM   #45
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Ok, can't see the sense of worrying about the performance of lack of, in bullets I can't get.
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Old October 15, 2023, 12:19 AM   #46
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carbine 125 gr, and .357 GP load

Quite some time ago I shot a good bit of W-W 125 gr JHP from my Marlin carbine. When my agency finally switched to mag ammo after ditching the +P+ '38 Treasury load, there was always some .357/125 about, and a fair amount of it went through that carbine. The load was terribly destructive on tissue, explosive like, proven on feral's and ethunizing deer at deer v. auto accidents. Ammo manuracture ran the table, some years W-W, other years, Federal or Rem. None of it ever desintegrated in flight and I typically zeroed the little lever gun "on" at 100 yds. I suppose stuff happens, but my experience does not match the commentary.

I have heard and read of bullets "misting away' in flight, usually light .224 dia slugs shot at extreme velocity at or near 4000 fps in high humidity conditions. Common in those accounts were high rifling twist rates.

The .357 mag load I shot the most, and still use, is a midrange load driving a 158 gr LSWC to 1000fps. Powerful enough to seem magnum like, enough authority to handle anything I might want or need to shoot and reasonably affordable, even today. Certain batches of commercial slugs would lead a bit, others would not, and I bought what I could find at the best price. My 4-5/8" B-hawk is still zeroed for that load.
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Old October 15, 2023, 09:46 AM   #47
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bam,

You were using factory ammo and I was using handloads. I think my "misting" loads consisted of a max load of 296 behind the WW125jhp bullets with estimated speeds around 2200fps. It's very likely you were using ammo optimized for handguns that didn't reach those same speeds out of a rifle. Your description of 223 bullets misting away describes my experience exactly. I never had any issues with heavier JHP bullets pushing 1700fps or so out of the rifle or with mid range 357 or 38+P loaded with the same Winchester 125gr bullets. A factory 158grain American Eagle JSP produces about 1800fps from a rifle.
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Old October 15, 2023, 11:32 AM   #48
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something to consider, when bullets come apart in flight, is that its not just linear velocity, or "friction with air" but the bullet's rotational velocity as well.

Spin a bullet on its axis (twist rate) too fast for what it is built to take, and it comes apart. Rare, but it can happen. The solution is simple, stick to driving various bullets within their intended designed velocity range.

If you don't know, or are unsure, ask the bullet maker, they will tell you what their bullet is built to take.
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Old October 15, 2023, 02:35 PM   #49
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One of the nice things about Hornady HP bullets is they usually come with a velocity guide in the box. I don't know of anybody else that does that.
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Old October 16, 2023, 10:58 AM   #50
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One of the down things about Hornady's velocity guide in the box is that sometimes in the box is the only place you find it, and that may be too late,,,

Some years ago I bought a box of Hornady 87gr JHPs, intending to use them with certain loads in my 25-06. Only AFTER opening the box did I find the little paper warning from Hornady, that those bullets were not to be used in loads exceeding 3400fps.

This was a couple hundred fps slower that what I was looking for and I was not happy about not finding any mention of velocity limits anywhere other than inside the box. I'm pretty sure they do a better job today, and I know they made lots of mention of their SX bullets velocity limitations.

Still, the point is that one needs to be aware of, and if needed do some research to determine if a given bullet is suitable for the use you have in mind.

IF the point is to ring steel at long range, expansion and penetration in game is a machts nichts.

If you already have a game load, learning to ring steel with it at long range is another matter. And, a bit more research will be needed to determine that the game load will still be effective and efficient at that same long range.

And, Particularly when starting velocity comes from the barrel of a revolver, rather than a carbine.
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